Attempting to Map the BOM

[cdowis]

2 hours ago, PeterPear said:

 

10 But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land.

...It's obviously quite difficult for MesoAmerica "LDS scholars" to figure out that very few Gentiles in the year 2016 live in Mesoamerica or are blessed therein - or even said "LDS scholars" refuse to move and live in said "blessed" land of Mesoamerica but most prefer to reside in the cursed land of Utah where they have a better market to sell their books on MesoAmerica Theory and reap the financial and the glory of being worshiped-blessings thereof. Hypocrites.

These are the same who claim Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about until he received a travel book from John Lloyd Stephens who had visited the "blessed" land of Mesoamerica and its ruins -said book revealing to the Prophet the true location of the Book of Mormon. What a joke.

It is very difficult for the BOM critics to absorb the concept that, while the BOM itself was written in the context of mesoamerica, that vast numbers of both Lamanites and Nephites inhabited the lands northward AND southward.  Helaman chapter 3, and chapter 6.  "Blessed upon the land" includes the western hemisphere, according to the Book of Mormon.

 

[Rajah Manchou]

4 hours ago, PeterPear said:

..It's obviously quite difficult for MesoAmerica "LDS scholars" to figure out that very few Gentiles in the year 2016 live in Mesoamerica or are blessed therein - or even said "LDS scholars" refuse to move and live in said "blessed" land of Mesoamerica but most prefer to reside in the cursed land of Utah where they have a better market to sell their books on MesoAmerica Theory and reap the financial and the glory of being worshiped-blessings thereof. Hypocrites.

Last I heard, the Heartland modelers were doing a pretty good job marketing their books and tours, in Utah. 

Last I checked, Meldrum's home in Utah was at least 300 miles closer to Mexico than Missouri. 

Mexico is still in North America, 100 miles closer to Jackson County Missouri than New York is.

[sam]

I think lds archeologist have successfully proven that the Book of Mormon did not take place in meso America. On the other hand you can artifacts, cultural, linguistic, and dna evidence that the North American Indians are the Lamanites and Nephites. You can find evidence for every aspect of the Book of Mormon in North America and North American Native American culture.

Native American Freemasonry and the Temple

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/11/native-american-freemasonry-and-temple.html

 

Buried Nephite City and BOM Elephants

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/11/buried-nephite-city-and-bom-elephants.html

What City of Bountiful Artifacts Would Look Like

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/11/what-city-of-bountiful-artifacts-would.html

 

Children of Israel and Native American Fiery Flying Serpents

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/11/children-of-israel-and-native-american.html

Native American Traditional use of Sacred Metal Tablets

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/11/native-american-traditional-use-of.html

Nephite (Hopewell Mik Maq) Old World Burial Rites and Rituals

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/11/nephite-hopewell-mik-maq-old-world.html

Exact Location of the Waters of Mormon

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/10/exact-location-of-waters-of-mormon.html

Mik Maq Nephites and Christ visit

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/10/mik-maq-nephites-and-christ-visit.html

Iroquios Lamanites

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/10/iroquios-lamanites.html

Cherokee Zoramites

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/cherokee-zoramites.html

Hopewell Smelting

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/hopewell-smelting.html

Hopewell meteoric iron axes and tools

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/hopewell-meteoric-iron-axes-and-tools.html

Archeological Evidence of the West Sea Fortified Line

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/archeological-evidence-of-west-sea.html

DNA Evidence of A white race of Indian

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/dna-evidence-of-white-race-of-indian_12.html

 

The extermination of a white race of Indian

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-extermination-of-white-race-of.html

Best Book of Mormon DNA Evidence X2A'J

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/best-book-of-mormon-dna-evidence-x2a.html

Hill Cumorah Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/hill-cumorah-mass-burial-pits-and.html

Reformed Egyptian Four Surviving Characters

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/native-american-egyptian-hieroglyph.html

Native American ties to the Book of Mormon

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/native-american-ties-to-book-of-mormon.html

Native American Jewish Hamsa Symbol

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/native-american-jewish-hamsa-symbol.html

Book of Mormon Cloth and Fine Twined Linen

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/book-of-mormon-clothclothing-and-buttons.html

Book of Mormon Breastplates and Jewelry

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/book-of-mormon-breastplates-and-jewelry.html

Book of Mormon Horses Chariots Highways and Trade

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/book-of-mormon-horses-chariots-highways.html

Native American Hebrew like temples

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/native-american-hebrew-like-temples.html

Native American Hebrew and Old World Language Ties

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/native-american-hebrew-language.html

Book of Mormon Swords

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/book-of-mormon-swords.html

Exact location of the Waters of Ripliancum: to Exceed All

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/exact-location-of-waters-of-ripliancum.html

Archeological Evidence of the Fortified Cities by the East Sea

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/archeological-evidence-of-fortified.html

 

Best map of the Book of Mormon nobody can find any discrepancies with it

Six Sea Model Alma Chapter 22 BOM Map

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/six-sea-model-alma-chapter-22-bom-map.html

 

 

[Marmonboy]

I would be curious as to who these "lds archaeologists" are who have proved the Book of Mormon took place in the heartland. Pretty much all those I know think it was Mesoamerica. And they don't all use just one website to publicize it.

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, Marmonboy said:

I would be curious as to who these "lds archaeologists" are who have proved the Book of Mormon took place in the heartland. Pretty much all those I know think it was Mesoamerica. And they don't all use just one website to publicize it.

And where has an LDS archaeologist "proved" the Book of Mormon took place in  MesoAmerica?  Why isn't the heartland theory is good as the MesoAmerican theory?

Are you aware of a single archaeologist, who (at the time of his or her endorsement), a member of a university's archaeology or anthropology department, endorsed Dr. Sorenson's view of MesoAmerica?   I certainly know of two prominent LDS anthropologists in the BYU department who take exception to Dr. Sorenson's methodology and conclusions.  I know BYU's Dr. Mark Wright has offered a somewhat tepid endorsement, but he's in the Department of Religion.  

And if there were endorsements, where were these?

Proof, indeed.   It's a hobby.   I'm particularly partial to the Niagara Isthmus as being the narrow neck of land.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Bob Crockett

[Brant Gardner]

6 hours ago, sam said:

I think lds archeologist have successfully proven that the Book of Mormon did not take place in meso America. On the other hand you can artifacts, cultural, linguistic, and dna evidence that the North American Indians are the Lamanites and Nephites. You can find evidence for every aspect of the Book of Mormon in North America and North American Native American culture. 

I am unaware of any trained LDS archeologist (or anthropologist) who accepts that there is acceptable evidence for the Book of Mormon in North America. This includes those who specialized in North America (and who do believe in the Book of Mormon). A name would be helpful.

I am aware of trained LDS archaeologist (and anthropologists) who accept a Mesoamerican setting.

I am certainly unaware of any way in which anyone has "successfully proven that the Book of Mormon did not take place" in Mesoamerica.

[Brant Gardner]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

And where has an LDS archaeologist "proved" the Book of Mormon took place in  MesoAmerica?  Why isn't the heartland theory is good as the MesoAmerican theory?

I am unaware of any LDS anthropologist or archaeologist who would use the word "proven" for most things in anthropology and archaeology. As for why the Heartland theory isn't as good as the Mesoamerican theory, there are lots of reasons--including geography, archaeology, population, agriculture, and political organization.

[Marmonboy]

What Brant said. Nothing has been proven. Not the Heartland, not Mesoamerica, not Malaysia (sorry, Rajah). But the evidence, as I see it as well as others, is leaning toward Mesoamerica, for the reasons Brant gave.

[sam]

On 12/16/2016 at 6:52 AM, Marmonboy said:

What Brant said. Nothing has been proven. Not the Heartland, not Mesoamerica, not Malaysia (sorry, Rajah). But the evidence, as I see it as well as others, is leaning toward Mesoamerica, for the reasons Brant gave.

Meso American apologist have a strangle hold on what the Neal a Maxwell institute puts out. They do not have any trained experts supporting the North American model. Same goes for fair.

If one ignores scripture and statements made by Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon can take place anywhere even Malaysia.

One Hill Cumorah not two.

Missouri being a border of the lamanites. D&C54:8

 

LETTER PENNED BY JOSEPH SMITH TO EMMA DURRING ZION’S CAMP MARCH WHICH TRAVELED FROM EASTERN OHIO THROUGH ILLINOIS TO MISOURI. JUNE 4, 1834.

Joseph Smith pointed out that the Hopewell mounds were nephite mounds.

“The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity, and gazing upon a country the fertility, the splendour and the goodness so indescribable, all serves to pass away time unnoticed.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, by Dean C. Jessee (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), p 324 in care of Community of Christ church)

 

Kishkumen

An Ojibwa Indian Chief named Keeshkemun, who succeeded his father to be chief, is mentioned in Warren’s book, Ojibwa History. Keeshkemun sounds strikingly similar to Kishkumen the Gadianton leader and one of the cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon. In fact if you google Keeshkemun, Kishkumen will come up. Besides Isrealis Ojibwa Indians have the highest concentration of haplogroup X DNA.

Onidah

The Book of Mormon in Alma 47:5 states that disaffected Lamanites gathered at a hill called Onidah
There is Native American Tribe in New York called Onieda phonetically exactly the same as Onidah


Onondaga

In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion’s Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith. He had vision as to who the bones belonged to.

“At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.” 

The Prophet Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon, but has obvious ties to the Onondaga Tribe whose traditional lands are in the state of New York. 

 

Native American Council Tower

Mosiah 2:7

7 For the multitude being so great that king Benjamin could not teach them all within the walls of the temple, therefore he caused a tower to be erected, that thereby his people might hear the words which he should speak unto them.

“Professor Carr of its once having supported a building similar to the council-house observed by Bartram on a mound at the old Cherokee town Cowe. Both were built on mounds, both were circular, both were built on posts set in the ground at equal distances from each other, and each had a central pillar. As tending to confirm this statement of Bartram’s, the following passage may be quoted, where, speaking of Colonel Christian’s march against the Cherokee towns in 1770, Eamsey says that this officer found in the center of each town ”a circular tower rudely built and covered with dirt, 30 feet in diameter, and about 20 feet high. This tower was used as a council-house… Mr. M. C. Bead, of Hudson, Ohio, discovered similar evidences in a mound near Chattanooga, and Mr. Gerard Fowke has quite recently found the same thing in a mound at Waverly, Ohio.”
(Thomas 1889 pg. 32)

The Saying Bury the Hatchet

The Book of Mormon tells the history of the Anti-Nephi’s, a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill other people. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground, never to use them again even in the case of self-defense for themselves or for their family.

The saying bury the hatchet comes from the Algonquin Indians of the Great Lakes area who also made peace by burying their weapons of war. As mentioned before, I think the Hopewell Indians are the best candidate to be the Nephites for numerous reasons - this is one of them.

The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.

Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, “I write to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon’s going to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them.”
(South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785)

Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase ‘Bury the Hatchet: “ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.”

 

The following are quotes from Joseph Smith (and a few others) that shed much light on the subject. I’ve highlighted in bold the particular parts of these statements that recount geography.

 

JOSEPH SMITH’S JOURNAL ACCOUNT REGARDING MORONI’S FIRST VISIT, NOVEMBER 1835

 

 

 

“He told me of a sacred record which was written on plates of gold, I saw in the vision the place where they were deposited, he said the indians were the literal descendants of Abraham…” (Joseph Smith History 1:34 )

 

NOTE: Indians refers to the Native Americans all around upstate New York.

 

LUCY MACK SMITH RECOUNTS JOSEPH AFTER THE FIRST VISION:

 

“From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening, for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same…. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and their animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.” (History of Joseph Smith by his mother, 1954 edition, pp. 82-83)

 

PURPOSE OF THE BOOK OF MORMON

 

“Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment.” (The Book of Mormon)

 

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE CHURCH IS ORGANIZED, THE LORD COMMANDS THE FIRST MISSIONARIES TO GO TO THE REMNANT OF THE LAMANITES. SEPTEMBER 8, 1830

 

“ 8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you  (Oliver Cowdery) shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them: …..” (D&C 28:8)

 

“1) And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt…

 

2)  And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.” (D&C 32:1-2 October 1830)

 

WHERE DID THEY GO?

 

“Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three tribes…. the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y.; the Wyandots, of Ohio: and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, p 56-61)

 

(NOTE; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints didn’t send missionaries to Central America until 1947. Almost 100 years after this commandment was issued by revelation.)

 

JOSEPH ALSO WENT PERSONALLY TO PREACH TO THE LAMANITES. AUGUST 12, 1841

 

“I accordingly went down, and met Keokuk, Kis-Ku-Kosh, Appenoose, and about one hundred chiefs and braves of those tribes (Sac, Fox), with their families.”

 

“I conducted them to the meeting grounds in the grove, and instructed them in many things which the Lord had revealed unto me concerning their fathers, and the promises that were made concerning them in the Book of Mormon.” (History of the Church: 4: 401-2 )

 

JOSEPH SMITH’S LETTER TO MR. JOHN WENTWORTH MARCH 1842

 

“March 1, 1842.—At the request of Mr. John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat, I have written the following sketch of the rise, progress, persecution, and faith of the Latter-day Saints, of which I have the honor, under God, of being the founder. ….all that I shall ask at his hands is that he publish the account entire, ungarnished, and without misrepresentation.”

 

(Note: this letter is one of the most important letters written by Joseph Smith because from it we get many details from the first vision, meetings with Moroni and this is also where the articles of faith originate.)

 

“I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country, and shown who they were, and from whence they came; a brief sketch of their origin, progress, civilization, laws, governments, of their righteousness and iniquity, and the blessings of God being finally withdrawn from them as a people was made known unto me: I was also told where there was deposited some plates on which were engraven an abridgement [abridgment] of the records of the ancient prophets that had existed on this continent….

 

The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour [Savior] made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness [fullness], and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent, that the people were cut off in consequence of their transgressions…  “(History of the Church 1: 301)

 

 JOSEPH SMITH’S LETTER TO THE AMERICAN REVIVALIST FEB 2, 1833

 

“The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians… By it, we learn that our western tribes of Indians, are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them.

 

NOTE: At the time, anything west of the Alegehny and appalacian mountains was part of the West.

 

NOTE: For those who claim that Joseph Smith was merely stating his opinion, his follow up letter clearly refutes that. After his first letter was not published in its entirety Joseph Smith sent a second follow up letter to N. E. Seaton, Rochester.  In it he states:

 

“Dear sir,

 

I was somewhat disappointed on the receiving my paper with only a part of my letter inserted in it. The letter which I wrote you for publication I wrote by the commandment of God. ” (History of the Church 1: 326)

 

THE ZELPH MOUND DISCOVERY DURING ZION’S CAMP MARCH AFTER CROSSING THE ILLINOIS RIVER. JUNE 3, 1834

Zelph Mound

 

Photograph by Ryan Fisher

 

“During our travels we visited several of the mounds which had been thrown up by the ancient inhabitants of this country-Nephites, Lamanites, etc., and this morning I went up on a high mound, near the river, accompanied by the brethren. From this mound we could overlook the tops of the trees and view the prairie on each side of the river as far as our vision could extend, and the scenery was truly delightful.

 

On the top of the mound were stones which presented the appearance of three altars having been erected one above the other, according to the ancient order; and the remains of bones were strewn over the surface of the ground. The brethren procured a shovel and a hoe, and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire, and between his ribs the stone point of a Lamanitish arrow, which evidently produced his death. Elder Burr Riggs retained the arrow. The contemplation of the scenery around us produced peculiar sensations in our bosoms; and subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains. The curse was taken from Zelph, or, at least, in part-one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the  arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.” (History of the Church Vol. 2: 79-80, June 3, 1834, 1948 edition)

 

NOTE: The “Zelph”  mound was excavated  recently and carbon dated to 385 AD.

 

THE LORD REVEALS WHERE ZARAHEMLA IS TO BE REBUILT

 

3 Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it. (D&C 125:3)

 

ONE MONTH BEFORE JOSEPH’S MARTYRDOM HE TAUGHT THE LAMANITES. MAY 23, 1844

 

“1PM held council with the Indians Sac & Fox in my back kitchen. I replied….Great Spirit wants you to be united and live in peace. (I) found a book, (presenting the Book of Mormon) which told me about your fathers and Great Spirit told me you must send to all the tribes you can, and tell them to live in peace, and when any of our people come to see you treat them as we treat you.” (Joseph Smith Diary entry, Thursday, May 23rd, 1844)

 

These statements from Joseph Smith clearly state where the Nephite lands are. Not only what continent, but what Country, and even which states within the United States are Nephite Lands along with specific tribes who are Lamanite descendants. Joseph even digs up the grave of a fallen rightous Lamanite warrior and receives revelation about his name, when and how he died. And if that isn’t enough the Lord reveals to Joseph Smith the location of Zarahemla, the capital of the Nephite nation, in the Doctrine and Covenants. Can it be any clearer or more specific? Hardly.

 

Why some believe that the events of the Book of Mormon took place elsewhere is a topic for another discussion. One may interpret the revelation on Zarahemla in different ways, but when read in light of all that Joseph Smith left us, the simplest understanding makes perfect sense. All I hope to accomplish with this post is to draw attention to these precious statements and add these enlightenments to the long list of revelations from the prophet Joseph Smith.

Native American Idioms and [WT1] Phraseology

Native American idioms and phraseology, as described by early settlers, are consistent with the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. Below are some examples of Native American idioms consistent with scripture. Examples are from John Heckewelder’s Manners and Customs of The Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighboring States.

Native American saying: “I will place you under my wings!”

Meaning: I will protect you at all hazards! You shall be perfectly safe, nobody shall molest you!

Scripture: 3 Nephi 10:6 O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: ”To bury deep in the earth” (an injury done)

Meaning: To consign it to oblivion.

Scripture: 2 Nephi 26:5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them.
(Heckewelder pg. 140)

Native American saying: “You have spoken with your lips only, not from the heart!”

Meaning: You endeavor to deceive me; you do not intend to do as you say!

Scripture: 2 Nephi 27:25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

Native American saying: “draw the thorns out of your feet and legs, grease your Stiffened joints with oil, and wipe the sweat off your body.”

Meaning: I make you feel comfortable after your fatiguing journey, that you may enjoy yourself while with us.

Hebrew Custom: The washing of feet is a Hebrew custom. It was the first item done when entering a house or tent. The host would provide the water and the guest would wash his own feet. If the host was wealthy, a slave would wash the feet.

Anointing of oil was used by Jews to refresh and invigorate the body. This custom is still done today by Arabians. In the example there are some similarities in the cleaning of feet and legs from thorns and the anointing of oil or grease to refresh the body.
(Heckewelder pg. 139)

---

 

https://nephiteexplorer.com/2011/11/16/joseph-smiths-testimony-on-the-lands-of-the-nephites/

Edited December 18, 2016 by sam
Grammer

[Rajah Manchou]

On 12/16/2016 at 9:22 AM, Marmonboy said:

What Brant said. Nothing has been proven. Not the Heartland, not Mesoamerica, not Malaysia (sorry, Rajah). But the evidence, as I see it as well as others, is leaning toward Mesoamerica, for the reasons Brant gave.

No problem. I fully agree with you. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I don't believe the geography and archeology to be so critical. What counts is are there living groups who believe they are from the House of Joseph, and the Tribe of Manasseh? Yes. Do those groups have accounts of a golden book that their foreign brothers will one day return to them? Yes. Are those same groups waiting for a restoration of their lost faith in God and the return of his son who once visited them? Yes.

If there are groups in Mexico identifying as the House of Joseph, great. If @sam knows of groups in Michigan, great. I just happen to know groups in Burma, Thailand, India and Malaysia claiming they are Manasseh, with substantial proof to support their claims. That's great too. The Book of Mormon is for them as well.

37 minutes ago, sam said:

If one ignores scripture and statements made by Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon can take place anywhere even Malaysia.

If one ignores all the anachronisms and mapping problems that come with the Heartland model, then yes, the model does fit some statements made by Joseph Smith. But only if you cherry pick the ones that agree with you.

[sam]

12 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

No problem. I fully agree with you. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I don't believe the geography and archeology to be so critical. What counts is are there living groups who believe they are from the House of Joseph, and the Tribe of Manasseh? Yes. Do those groups have accounts of a golden book that their foreign brothers will one day return to them? Yes. Are those same groups waiting for a restoration of their lost faith in God and the return of his son who once visited them? Yes.

If there are groups in Mexico identifying as the House of Joseph, great. If @sam knows of groups in Michigan, great. I just happen to know groups in Burma, Thailand, India and Malaysia claiming they are Manasseh, with substantial proof to support their claims. That's great too. The Book of Mormon is for them as well.

If one ignores all the anachronisms and mapping problems that come with the Heartland model, then yes, the model does fit some statements made by Joseph Smith. But only if you cherry pick the ones that agree with you.

The Book of Mormon is for everyone. The six sea model has no mapping problems.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/six-sea-model-alma-chapter-22-bom-map.html

[sam]

Perhaps meso American apologist can help me with this. I believe this a new major flaw in the meso American model.

North of Zarahemla was wilderness occupied by Lamanites. There is not one meso American model that shows lamanites north of Zarahemla just bountiful and the land of desolation. That means between Zarahemla and bountiful were large concurses of Lamanites. It does make sense to have a large number of Lamanites sandwiched between Zarahemla and Bountiful.

The Land of Nephi is also North of Zarahemla.
Alma 22:27
27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

Alma 2:24
24 Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them;

Nephites flee to city of Zarahemla.

26 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi took their tents, and departed out of the valley of Gideon towards their city, which was the city of Zarahemla.

Lamanites flee before the Nephites going north and west to the wildernesses above (north) of Zarahemla. 

The Lamanite wilderness Minon Is North of Zarahmla.
35 And it came to pass that when they had all crossed the river Sidon that the Lamanites and the Amlicites began to flee before them, notwithstanding they were so numerous that they could not be numbered.

36 And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north, away beyond the borders of the land; and the Nephites did pursue them with their might, and did slay them.

zarahemla has large open wilderness on its west and north border occupied by lamanites.

Edited December 18, 2016 by sam
Grammer

[Rajah Manchou]

50 minutes ago, sam said:

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE CHURCH IS ORGANIZED, THE LORD COMMANDS THE FIRST MISSIONARIES TO GO TO THE REMNANT OF THE LAMANITES. SEPTEMBER 8, 1830 

"8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you  (Oliver Cowdery) shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them: ….." (D&C 28:8)

1) And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt…
2)  And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.” (D&C 32:1-2 October 1830)

WHERE DID THEY GO?

"Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three tribes…. the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y.; the Wyandots, of Ohio: and the Delawares, west of Missouri." (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, p 56-61)

 

Where did they go? Only Missouri? Not at all. Pratt was called to preach to the Lamanites as President of the General Mission to the Pacific which included both the west coast of North America, Central America and South America, as well as Australia, Japan and China and all the islands of the Pacific and Indian oceans. He also moved to Chile to do missionary work. 

So where were the Lamanites?

If you haven't read Orson Pratt's statements on where the Lamanite remnant could be found, here's a portion that I posted above that you may have missed:

"Here let me say again, according to the Book of Mormon, many of those great islands that are found in the Indian Ocean, also in the great Pacific Sea, have been planted with colonies of Israelites. Do they not resemble each other? Go to the Sandwich Islands, to the South Sea Islands, to Japan—go to the various islands of the Pacific Ocean, and you find a general resemblance in the characters and countenances of the people. Who are they? According to the Book of Mormon, Israelites were scattered forth from time to time, and colonies planted on these islands of the ocean. In that day the isles will sing with joy; in that day the isles of the sea will wait for the Lord's law; in that day the isles of the sea will rejoice, for they will give up their inhabitants, and they will be wafted in ships to their promised land, and God will show forth his power and gather millions of people from these numerous isles of the ocean, and he will bring them back to the land of their fathers. These poor degraded Lamanites, or American Indians, that are now so far sunk beneath humanity, are to be lifted up by the power of the Almighty when the day shall come for Israel to be restored, for God will not forget them. They are descendants of the tribe of Joseph, and consequently they are numbered with the people of the covenant. God will remember the covenant which he made with our ancient fathers."

Missionaries were commanded to preach to the remnant of the Lamanites, and they were believed to be spread from the borders of Missouri, through North and South America and into the Pacific and Indian Oceans.

[sam]

4 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Where did they go? Only Missouri? Not at all. Pratt was called to preach to the Lamanites as President of the General Mission to the Pacific which included both the west coast of North America, Central America and South America, as well as Australia, Japan and China and all the islands of the Pacific and Indian oceans. He also moved to Chile to do missionary work. 

So where were the Lamanites?

If you haven't read Orson Pratt's statements on where the Lamanite remnant could be found, here's a portion that I posted above that you may have missed:

"Here let me say again, according to the Book of Mormon, many of those great islands that are found in the Indian Ocean, also in the great Pacific Sea, have been planted with colonies of Israelites. Do they not resemble each other? Go to the Sandwich Islands, to the South Sea Islands, to Japan—go to the various islands of the Pacific Ocean, and you find a general resemblance in the characters and countenances of the people. Who are they? According to the Book of Mormon, Israelites were scattered forth from time to time, and colonies planted on these islands of the ocean. In that day the isles will sing with joy; in that day the isles of the sea will wait for the Lord's law; in that day the isles of the sea will rejoice, for they will give up their inhabitants, and they will be wafted in ships to their promised land, and God will show forth his power and gather millions of people from these numerous isles of the ocean, and he will bring them back to the land of their fathers. These poor degraded Lamanites, or American Indians, that are now so far sunk beneath humanity, are to be lifted up by the power of the Almighty when the day shall come for Israel to be restored, for God will not forget them. They are descendants of the tribe of Joseph, and consequently they are numbered with the people of the covenant. God will remember the covenant which he made with our ancient fathers."

Missionaries were commanded to preach to the remnant of the Lamanites, and they were believed to be spread from the borders of Missouri, through North and South America and into the Pacific and Indian Oceans.

I agree with pratt that everyone in the world will be gathered to the New Jerusalem in Missouri as mentioned by the Book of Mormon and D&C. I have no problem calling people in the Islands Israelites. But the evidence is that they are not Nephites or Lamanites mentioned in the Book of Mormon. There is a big difference between Pratt and Joseph Smith.  

[sam]

20 minutes ago, sam said:

Perhaps meso American apologist can help me with this. I believe this a new major flaw in the meso American model.

North of Zarahemla was wilderness occupied by Lamanites. There is not one meso American model that shows lamanites north of Zarahemla just bountiful and the land of desolation. That means between Zarahemla and bountiful were large concurses of Lamanites. It does make sense to have a large number of Lamanites sandwiched between Zarahemla and Bountiful.

The Land of Nephi is also North of Zarahemla.
Alma 22:27
27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

Alma 2:24
24 Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them;

Nephites flee to city of Zarahemla.

26 And it came to pass that the people of Nephi took their tents, and departed out of the valley of Gideon towards their city, which was the city of Zarahemla.

Lamanites flee before the Nephites going north and west to the wildernesses above (north) of Zarahemla. 

The Lamanite wilderness Minon Is North of Zarahmla.
35 And it came to pass that when they had all crossed the river Sidon that the Lamanites and the Amlicites began to flee before them, notwithstanding they were so numerous that they could not be numbered.

36 And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north, away beyond the borders of the land; and the Nephites did pursue them with their might, and did slay them.

zarahemla has large open wilderness on its west and north border occupied by lamanites.

This major flaw fits the six sea model perfectly. See verse 27

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/six-sea-model-alma-chapter-22-bom-map.html

Edited December 18, 2016 by sam

[sam]

1 hour ago, sam said:

This major flaw fits the six sea model perfectly. See verse 27

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/six-sea-model-alma-chapter-22-bom-map.html

What was also North of Zarahemla is bountiful.

3 Nephi 3:23

23 And the land which was appointed was the land of Zarahemla, and the land which was between the land Zarahemla and the land Bountiful, yea, to the line which was between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation.

How is it possible that Lamanites and bountiful were all north of Zarahemla? In the six sea model it shows the west sea (Lake Michigan) between the two.

 

[sam]

Its obvious the map of the Book of Mormon is the six sea model. It can account for all the discrepancies that other maps don't.

[Rajah Manchou]

18 hours ago, sam said:

It does make sense to have a large number of Lamanites sandwiched between Zarahemla and Bountiful.

But the Lamanites are not hemmed in by Bountiful, and prevented from overrunning the Land Northward.

[sam]

5 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

But the Lamanites are not hemmed in by Bountiful, and prevented from overrunning the Land Northward.

 

5 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

But the Lamanites are not hemmed in by Bountiful, and prevented from overrunning the Land Northward.

I made a typo it does NOT make sense to have lamanite wilderness sandwiched in between Zarahemla and bountiful. Since this lamanite wilderness and Bountiful are north of Zarahemla the west sea (lake michigan) separates the two.

I don't understand what your question or point is. This verse you posted is in reference to the east side of the Lamanites wilderness. The Nephites were blocking entry through the Niagara narrow pass. Keeping the area north of the narrow pass free from Lamanites.

Moroni in (Alma Chapter 50) clears out the Lamanites from the east wilderness (New York area) and has the Nephites occupy the land and build fortifications. Moroni (Alma Chapter 52) refortifies the area from attack.

[Brant Gardner]

On 12/18/2016 at 7:58 AM, sam said:

Meso American apologist have a strangle hold on what the Neal a Maxwell institute puts out. They do not have any trained experts supporting the North American model. Same goes for fair.

 

Sam, I'm sure you want to be accurate in your representations, so you should understand that the reason that you don't see the previous incarnation of the Maxwell Institute or FairMormon supporting a North American model is due to the weight of evidence. In particular, it is information that comes from those who have training in relevant fields. As I noted before it isn't that the Maxwell Institute (or now Interpreter Foundation) or FairMormon are unfairly dominated by Mesoamerican proponents--but that there are no trained archaeologists or anthropologists who support any North American model (and there are several). 

As a simple point, if I look at your model you have a problem with the text versus archaeology. The text requires that there be large populations in both the Nephite and Lamanite territories in late Book of Mormon times. Archaeology does not support that kind of population in the area you have those peoples. Further, the Jaredites had a large population much earlier that is heavily north of Nephite lands (and never south). There is no population/culture that fits that description in the area you have selected.

Quote

If one ignores scripture and statements made by Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon can take place anywhere even Malaysia.

If we are to seriously examine any model, we must seriously examine all models. Don't dismiss Malaysia without understanding the arguments any more than you would want someone to dismiss your model without seriously considering it. However, your premise that we ignore scripture or statements by Joseph misunderstand both history and the statements by Joseph. You are aware that it took about 14 years before Joseph Smith every used the word Cumorah for the NY hill? Others, notably Oliver, had been using it for a long time, but there is currently no record of Joseph. Way wasn't Joseph the first? 

Historical evidence is always open to interpretation, and there are those who have a vested interest in making Joseph exclusively North American in his perspective. It certainly included that, but also included much of the hemisphere. Joseph was pretty open to change according to new information when it came to geography. There is no evidence that he knew where the Book of Mormon took place--and the official position of the church has always been that such information hasn't been revealed. So I am unwilling to take a specific interpretation of Joseph as valid when it requires that I declare that all prophets and apostles since Joseph completely misunderstood Joseph--including those who knew him well.

[sam]

Ok I think I understand your point directly south of bountiful is Zarahemla. The verse is saying the lamanites are south of the land northward. To protect bountiful they hemmed in the lamanites that were south of the land northward and also could attack Bountiful East border. In this way it was to their advantage that the land northward was not overrun by Lamanites.

 

When this area starts becoming a problem Moroni clears out that entire area of lamanites and builds fortification. Those fortifcations were first noticed by settlers.

 

Concerning this line of fortifications Charles Whittlesey said: That they formed a well occupied line, constructed either to protect the advance of a nation landing from the lake (Lake Erie) and moving southward for conquest; or, a line of resistance for a people inhabiting these shores and pressed upon by their southern neighbors. (Quoted in R. Silverberg, Mound Builders of Ancient America, p. 116.)

E.G Sqier stated: System of Defenses extending from the sources of the Allegheny and Susquehanna in New York, diagonally across the country, through central and northern Ohio, to the Wabash. (Ancient Monuments, p. 44.)

 

 

 

[sam]

I'm telling you guys this is the map of the Book of Mormon Nobody has been able to find any discrepancies.

Edited December 19, 2016 by sam

[sam]

47 minutes ago, Brant Gardner said:

Sam, I'm sure you want to be accurate in your representations, so you should understand that the reason that you don't see the previous incarnation of the Maxwell Institute or FairMormon supporting a North American model is due to the weight of evidence. In particular, it is information that comes from those who have training in relevant fields. As I noted before it isn't that the Maxwell Institute (or now Interpreter Foundation) or FairMormon are unfairly dominated by Mesoamerican proponents--but that there are no trained archaeologists or anthropologists who support any North American model (and there are several). 

As a simple point, if I look at your model you have a problem with the text versus archaeology. The text requires that there be large populations in both the Nephite and Lamanite territories in late Book of Mormon times. Archaeology does not support that kind of population in the area you have those peoples. Further, the Jaredites had a large population much earlier that is heavily north of Nephite lands (and never south). There is no population/culture that fits that description in the area you have selected.

If we are to seriously examine any model, we must seriously examine all models. Don't dismiss Malaysia without understanding the arguments any more than you would want someone to dismiss your model without seriously considering it. However, your premise that we ignore scripture or statements by Joseph misunderstand both history and the statements by Joseph. You are aware that it took about 14 years before Joseph Smith every used the word Cumorah for the NY hill? Others, notably Oliver, had been using it for a long time, but there is currently no record of Joseph. Way wasn't Joseph the first? 

Historical evidence is always open to interpretation, and there are those who have a vested interest in making Joseph exclusively North American in his perspective. It certainly included that, but also included much of the hemisphere. Joseph was pretty open to change according to new information when it came to geography. There is no evidence that he knew where the Book of Mormon took place--and the official position of the church has always been that such information hasn't been revealed. So I am unwilling to take a specific interpretation of Joseph as valid when it requires that I declare that all prophets and apostles since Joseph completely misunderstood Joseph--including those who knew him well.

The border of the lamanites is Missouri D&C54:8

The church has only one Hill Cumorah visitor center.

If Joseph Smith was open to different interpretations beyond what the scriptures state and he himself stated I need to see the statement you are referring to. And not a second hand account.

The Hopewells had large cities and also small villages as described in the Book of Mormon They stretched from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of mexico. Their mounds took millions of man hours to build. If this is your only complaint about the Hopewell I can come up with a million different reasons why none of the meso American civilizations do not match the civilizations found in the Book of Mormon. Name one civilization and we can compare. 

 

[sam]

1 hour ago, Brant Gardner said:

Sam, I'm sure you want to be accurate in your representations, so you should understand that the reason that you don't see the previous incarnation of the Maxwell Institute or FairMormon supporting a North American model is due to the weight of evidence. In particular, it is information that comes from those who have training in relevant fields. As I noted before it isn't that the Maxwell Institute (or now Interpreter Foundation) or FairMormon are unfairly dominated by Mesoamerican proponents--but that there are no trained archaeologists or anthropologists who support any North American model (and there are several). 

As a simple point, if I look at your model you have a problem with the text versus archaeology. The text requires that there be large populations in both the Nephite and Lamanite territories in late Book of Mormon times. Archaeology does not support that kind of population in the area you have those peoples. Further, the Jaredites had a large population much earlier that is heavily north of Nephite lands (and never south). There is no population/culture that fits that description in the area you have selected.

If we are to seriously examine any model, we must seriously examine all models. Don't dismiss Malaysia without understanding the arguments any more than you would want someone to dismiss your model without seriously considering it. However, your premise that we ignore scripture or statements by Joseph misunderstand both history and the statements by Joseph. You are aware that it took about 14 years before Joseph Smith every used the word Cumorah for the NY hill? Others, notably Oliver, had been using it for a long time, but there is currently no record of Joseph. Way wasn't Joseph the first? 

Historical evidence is always open to interpretation, and there are those who have a vested interest in making Joseph exclusively North American in his perspective. It certainly included that, but also included much of the hemisphere. Joseph was pretty open to change according to new information when it came to geography. There is no evidence that he knew where the Book of Mormon took place--and the official position of the church has always been that such information hasn't been revealed. So I am unwilling to take a specific interpretation of Joseph as valid when it requires that I declare that all prophets and apostles since Joseph completely misunderstood Joseph--including those who knew him well.

Also what I'm most interested in is why there is not one meso American model that shows there is a lamanite population north of Zarahemla as described in Alma chapter 2.

[Marmonboy]

1 hour ago, sam said:

I'm telling you guys this is the map of the Book of Mormon Nobody has been able to find any discrepancies.

The problem is, people have found discrepancies, but they are summarily dismissed by heartlanders because the Heartland theory is the only valid one. Which it isn't, due to the aforementioned discrepancies.