Ancient gold plates unearthed

[bcuzbcuz]

2 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

Of course. For starters: 

1. Plato's Critias
2. Plato's Timaeus (portions of which were translated by none other than Hagoth's contemporary, the Roman senator Cicero, whose recently-captured freedman introduced a form of shorthand that even critics of the Book of Mormon acknowledge bears a striking likeness to the characters from what is often called the Anthon manuscript.)

A) Plato specifically said that the home of that civilization was beyond the pillars of Hercules (straits of Gibraltar)

B) Plato also said, among other things, that "...the land surrounding [the civilization] may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent..."

C) Plato specifically said that the home of that civilization was "larger" than two Old World regions/continents combined

(The Atlantic Ocean bears its name for a very distinct reason.)

Your efforts at being oblique are very effective. But that´s a method of communication that works poorly through the medium of the internet. 

Please try to express yourself less mystical and much clearer.

[notHagoth7]

49 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Your efforts at being oblique....

Please try to express yourself less mystical and much clearer.

? Nothing oblique or mystical about it. Plato spoke at length about an ancient civilization in the region we now know as the Americas.

Most modern readers assert/assume the theory that Plato's account, and parallel ancient accounts, were baseless myths.

I, on the other hand, assert that such accounts arose from actual historical encounters.

Is that more clear?

To recap: 

• Hagoth had said: "By the same logic can we assume from the existence of metal swords in the Old World that the Jaredites also had them?"
• To which I relied, "Yes. Old World testimony asserts [the existence of] powerful armies from the region we now know as the Americas...."
• For which Hagoth requested an initial source or two
• To which I initially replied with two ancient sources...out of several that I *could* have drawn from.

Is there anything else that you would like me to clarify?

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Hagoth]

The last few posts just help confirm how little empirical evidence there is for the Book of Mormon. Both of you have theories and sources that work as well for you as anyone else's. The list of potential Book of Mormon locations and explanations just keeps growing. It's a lot of fun if we don't get ourselves too worked up about it. (sorry Rajah, I did miss your signature. I don't spend a lot of time here)

Edited September 14, 2016 by Hagoth

[notHagoth7]

12 minutes ago, Hagoth said:

The last few posts just help confirm how little empirical evidence there is for the Book of Mormon....

How much evidence were you actually expecting? (at least from Old-World sources?)

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/1.8?lang=eng#7

In the end, there's only one source of evidence that matters.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/16.4?lang=eng#3

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3-5?lang=eng

Edited September 14, 2016 by notHagoth7

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Hagoth said:

...Both of you have theories and sources that work as well for you as anyone else's. The list of potential Book of Mormon locations and explanations just keeps growing...

? I have not claimed that Book of Mormon historical events took place anywhere other than the Americas (other than including Lehi and Nephi's visions and prophecies that encompassed such places as Europe). 

I am, however, at least interested in the premise, derived from some of Rajah's comments, that they may have worked their way to the Americas by way of southern Asia.

Edited September 14, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Hagoth]

15 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

? I have not claimed that Book of Mormon historical events took place anywhere other than the Americas (other than including Lehi and Nephi's visions and prophecies that encompassed such places as Europe). 

.

No, but Plato, the only source,  wasn't exactly an eye-witness to the events that he describes from thousands of years before his birth.

 

Quote

I am, however, at least interested in the premise, derived from some of Rajah's comments, that they may have worked their way to the Americas by way of southern Asia

That would be fascinating. If only some of their DNA had persisted...

[Hagoth]

4 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

So very true...
Asian Setting for the Book of Mormon
In case you missed my signature.

 

 

BTW, Rajah, that is an awesome presentation. Haven't read all of the details but I love the way you laid it out. How do you square all of this with the orthodox view and all of the American centricism in the many, many statements of prophets and apostles, starting with Joseph Sith? For example:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/a-promised-land?lang=eng

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Hagoth said:

No, but Plato, the only source,  wasn't exactly an eye-witness to the events that he describes from thousands of years before his birth.

As I indicated earlier, although two of Plato's works were the initial sources I offered, he isn't the only such source. Not by far.

The broader question might be, what degree of secular evidence would be sufficient for someone to approach the Nephite record in the manner suggested within the account...fx Moroni 10?

 

[Rajah Manchou]

5 hours ago, Hagoth said:

The last few posts just help confirm how little empirical evidence there is for the Book of Mormon. Both of you have theories and sources that work as well for you as anyone else's. The list of potential Book of Mormon locations and explanations just keeps growing. It's a lot of fun if we don't get ourselves too worked up about it. (sorry Rajah, I did miss your signature. I don't spend a lot of time here)

No worries. Thought you might have been reading on a phone or another device that doesn't display the signature lines.

I'm not familiar with NotHagoth's views on BoM geography but based on his last few comments it doesn't seem like he is proposing anything that conflicts with the two dominant American geographies. Coincidentally, I don't even see a conflict with what I am proposing for Asia. He seems to be proposing that the Book of Mormon account happened in that unknown space in the Atlantic while I'm proposing it happened in that unknown space in the Pacific. But from a pre-15th-century perspective its the same space, and all of it was "New World" until Columbus/Magellan.

[Rajah Manchou]

4 hours ago, Hagoth said:

BTW, Rajah, that is an awesome presentation. Haven't read all of the details but I love the way you laid it out. How do you square all of this with the orthodox view and all of the American centricism in the many, many statements of prophets and apostles, starting with Joseph Sith? For example:  https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/a-promised-land?lang=eng

The problem with the many, many statements of prophets and apostles starting with Smith is that if you take all of them and put them on a map, you are left with no options. There is no single point on a map that can satisfy all the opinions advanced since 1823. That's the bad news.

The good news is, since there is so much disagreement, we can start over...using nothing but the Book of Mormon text.

Quote

20 We have been driven out of the land of our inheritance; but we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea.

21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

 

 

So in my view, regardless of the specific point on the map where the New Jerusalem will be built, the promised land is much more expansive than we've previously allowed. The promised land includes all the isles of the sea.

Official church publications acknowledge that the Lamanite remnant is to be found in North America, South America and the South Pacific, which I believe extends through the East Indies and to the Malay Peninsula.
 

[Hagoth]

21 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

Moroni 10?

 

I understand that epistemology via emotional/spiritual experience is adequate for some people, I'm just not one of them. I was never able to convince myself that a Mormon's internal spiritual validation of the Book of Mormon should trump anyone else's equivalent experience of their own sacred texts or beliefs. I have heard many, many "testimonies" of people from other belief system that are every bit as powerful, heart-felt and sincere.

Concerning Atlantis, I love the concept but I think any attempt to nail it down suffers from the same problems we face with the BoM. 

 

 

[Gray]

18 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The good news is, since there is so much disagreement, we can start over...using nothing but the Book of Mormon text.

 

I just wanted to compliment you on this turn of phrase. I like it.

I don't believe the BOM corresponds to a real world geography, but I find your approach refreshing. 

[notHagoth7]

41 minutes ago, Hagoth said:

I understand that epistemology via emotional/spiritual experience is adequate for some people, I'm just not one of them.

One of my best friends growing up was wired similarly. Understood completely.

I was never able to convince myself that a Mormon's internal spiritual validation of the Book of Mormon should trump anyone else's equivalent experience of their own sacred texts or beliefs. I have heard many, many "testimonies" of people from other belief system that are every bit as powerful, heart-felt and sincere.

Understood. Like you, I'm *also* not of the opinion that *my* experience can or should trump anyone else's. My experiences are my own. Theirs are their own. And I respect whatever experiences they have had - and frequently enjoy studying and worshipping alongside a good number of them.

Concerning Atlantis, I love the concept but I think any attempt to nail it down suffers from the same problems we face with the BoM. 

Understood again. I'm less interested in nailing it down. More interested in demonstrating a pattern of ancient, medieval, and modern evidence that demonstrates the increasing viability of Nephite testimony. And I'm in the process of drafting an additional book based on such. I understand such may not be sufficient for some - but might help a few to nurture sufficient hope to work their way through initial skepticism to something more along the lines of hope/faith-nurturing approaches in Alma 32 and other ideals cited earlier in this thread.   

 

[Hagoth]

9 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

 I understand such may not be sufficient for some - but might help a few to nurture sufficient hope to work their way through initial skepticism to something more along the lines of hope/faith-nurturing approaches in Alma 32 and other ideals cited earlier in this thread.   

 

I have come to the conclusion that different brains just work in different ways. I spent decades nurturing that seed with truckloads of fertilizer. Other people seem to have naturally fertile soil in that regard. Spiritual green thumb? If someone suggests that I'm struggling with my testimony I point out that finally found some peace by ceasing struggle and moving on to a new worldview. Either way, the Book of Mormon and the story of its coming forth is fascinating and worthy of a great deal of consideration and thoughtful investigation.

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Hagoth said:

I have come to the conclusion that different brains just work in different ways.

Agreed.

And differences even go beyond workings of the brain. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/46.10-11,14?lang=eng#9

So, if I'm reading such passages correctly, especially the last verse, it's not always reasonable for those who have a testimony to expect that *everyone* will in the here and now.

1 hour ago, Hagoth said:

I spent decades nurturing that seed with truckloads of fertilizer. Other people seem to have naturally fertile soil in that regard. Spiritual green thumb? If someone suggests that I'm struggling with my testimony I point out that finally found some peace by ceasing struggle and moving on to a new worldview.

Understood. Peace is a valuable commodity. 

1 hour ago, Hagoth said:

Either way, the Book of Mormon and the story of its coming forth is fascinating and worthy of a great deal of consideration and thoughtful investigation.

Edited September 15, 2016 by notHagoth7

[sam]

21 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The problem with the many, many statements of prophets and apostles starting with Smith is that if you take all of them and put them on a map, you are left with no options. There is no single point on a map that can satisfy all the opinions advanced since 1823. That's the bad news.

The good news is, since there is so much disagreement, we can start over...using nothing but the Book of Mormon text.

 

 

So in my view, regardless of the specific point on the map where the New Jerusalem will be built, the promised land is much more expansive than we've previously allowed. The promised land includes all the isles of the sea.

Official church publications acknowledge that the Lamanite remnant is to be found in North America, South America and the South Pacific, which I believe extends through the East Indies and to the Malay Peninsula.
 

All accept my map nobody has found is discrepancies with my map. I would appreciate it if somebody would.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/alma-chapter-22-bom-map.html

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, sam said:

All accept my map nobody has found is discrepancies with my map. I would appreciate it if somebody would....

A couple of initial comments/questions. The commentary for Alma 63 on that website raises questions.

It asserts that Hagoth's "exceedingly large ship" sailed a few hundred miles away, but didn't return until the following year.

1) What's your take on a short, round-trip journey (less than 400 miles) taking a year?

2) Based on the rapids of St. Mary's River making the route between both lakes unnavigable for at least the last few centuries, how do you suggest this "exceedingly large ship" made it from Lake Michigan to Lake Superior...and back?

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by notHagoth7

[sam]

4 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

A couple of initial comments/questions. The commentary for Alma 63 on that website raises questions.

It asserts that Hagoth's "exceedingly large ship" sailed a few hundred miles away, but didn't return until the following year.

1) What's your take on a short, round-trip journey (less than 400 miles) taking a year?

2) Based on the rapids of St. Mary's River making the route between both lakes unnavigable for at least the last few centuries, how do you suggest this "exceedingly large ship" made it from Lake Michigan to Lake Superior...and back?

 

Hagoth left in spring at the beginning of the year . This is going by the Hebrew and native American calendar where the begging of the year is between March and April. Upon his arrival he would have to prepare for the winter months. The following year during spring he then sailed back. He loaded up more people then sailed back to the land northward which matches up well with the map.

As far as where hagoth landed I'm open to suggestions. If St Marys river is not navigable then I think he landed somewhere by st Mary's river as it empties into Lake Huron. Maybe archeological or dna concentrations can give a better idea of where they settled. Good question though. These are the type of questions I have not considered and need help with.

Alma63

 7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward. 

 

[Rajah Manchou]

9 hours ago, Gray said:

I don't believe the BOM corresponds to a real world geography, but I find your approach refreshing. 

Most of the experts would disagree with me, but I think anyone who honestly looks at the internal BoM map can agree that it doesn't fit a real world geography.

The only two explanations I can think of are:
(1) Mormon (or whoever the author might be) was working off a mental map of the Americas that was drawn incorrectly.
(2) The real world geography is not in the Americas.

Maybe there are other explanations, but I've narrowed it down to these two.

[notHagoth7]

3 hours ago, sam said:

Hagoth left in spring at the beginning of the year . This is going by the Hebrew and native American calendar where the begging of the year is between March and April. Upon his arrival he would have to prepare for the winter months.

...If St Marys river is not navigable then I think he landed somewhere by st Mary's river as it empties into Lake Huron. Maybe archeological or dna concentrations can give a better idea of where they settled. Good question though. These are the type of questions I have not considered and nee help with.

Hi again Sam,

Your response suggests that the basis for my first question was unclear.

So another attempt at clarity: Here's a more specific explanation of the initial challenge I currently see with your suggestion for Hagoth and Alma 63. Sailing speeds of 40mph+ are reached on the Great Lakes now. Let's say Hagoth's largest ship could only reach a small fraction of that speed, let's say 5 MPH, and that they traveled 10-12 hours per day (50-60 miles/day). At such a pace, they would have reached the north end of the lake in a few days, considerably *less* than a week.  For a sailing distance of less than a week that started in the early spring, as you suggest, why would they need to stop to "prepare for the winter months" when their arrival would have still been in the very early spring...and when they were only a few days away from their starting point?

When Alma 63 attests that a year lapsed for their actual round-trip journey, how does that align with your map, which suggests a round-trip journey of less than two weeks?

That discrepancy simply doesn't add up for me. By this, I don't mean to discourage you from trying to make sense of the text. On the contrary. I'm simply saying that Alma 63 doesn't seem to be a good match for the distances you're initially suggesting. 

Unless someone sees something obvious that I'm overlooking.

Furthermore, the context of Alma 63 and other passages suggests a longer journey. A devastating war had just ended where the Lamanites had almost pushed the Nephite into the sea to extinction. Their beloved leader Captain Moroni had just died (verse 3). And Helaman had died just two years prior (final verse of the previous chapter).  The vacuum of their recent deaths, and the deaths of tens of thousands of Nephites from the recently-ended war, likely hung like a shadow over the Nephites, especially with the prophecy to Helaman through Alma, several years earlier, of the Nephite's eventual extinction. In such a setting, I would imagine many prayed humbly for insight and direction. Hence the Nephite diaspora of Alma 63. In my assessment, they were essentially jettisoning in escape pods to flee a doomed civilization...in hopes of a better promise.

 

In such a context, a journey of 4 or 5 days simply wouldn't add up for me, even if we did *not* have the one-year duration clearly defined in Alma 63. The fact that we *do* have a one-year duration only adds to my intended point.

Consider, for example, the principle declared by Nephi's brother Jacob in 2 Nephi 10:

Quote

And now, my beloved brethren, seeing that our merciful God has given us so great knowledge concerning these things, let us remember him, and lay aside our sins, and not hang down our heads, for we are not cast off; nevertheless, we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance; but we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and we are upon an isle of the sea.

But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.

For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure.

...Just as He led Lehi and his family out of the Old World to some place New.  

And so on. And so on. 

Thoughts?

Edited September 16, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Rajah Manchou]

26 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

When Alma 63 attests that a year lapsed for their actual round-trip journey, how does that align with your map, which suggests a round-trip journey of less than two weeks?

That discrepancy simply doesn't add up for me. By this, I don't mean to discourage you from trying to make sense of the text. On the contrary. I'm simply saying that Alma 63 doesn't seem to be a good match for the distances you're initially suggesting. 

Unless someone sees something obvious that I'm overlooking.

Thoughts?

The Great Lakes don't feel right to me. The doubts I have are in the verses that claim that there may have been a shipwreck and the people were never heard from again. And another party went north and "whither she did go we know not". 

The lakes aren't so massive that a party would just disappear without the other settlers in the north knowing about it. Even if the ships reached the far end of Lake Michigan, it wouldn't be that difficult for those onboard to walk back along the shore of the lake if they were shipwrecked or had any problems.

Is there any historical precedence for building exceedingly large ships in such small lakes? Seems like smaller boats making frequent runs along the coast would be an easier way to get around Lake Michigan in 52 BC.

[why me]

On 14.9.2016 at 9:24 PM, Hagoth said:

The last few posts just help confirm how little empirical evidence there is for the Book of Mormon. Both of you have theories and sources that work as well for you as anyone else's. The list of potential Book of Mormon locations and explanations just keeps growing. It's a lot of fun if we don't get ourselves too worked up about it. (sorry Rajah, I did miss your signature. I don't spend a lot of time here)

On the other hand there is very little empirical evidence for any religious book. Religions work by faith and not evidence.

[Rajah Manchou]

8 hours ago, sam said:

Hagoth left in spring at the beginning of the year . This is going by the Hebrew and native American calendar where the begging of the year is between March and April. Upon his arrival he would have to prepare for the winter months. The following year during spring he then sailed back. He loaded up more people then sailed back to the land northward which matches up well with the map.

It is reasonable to expect that they'd have to sit out the winter months. I don't know much about Lake Michigan but even if the ice coverage was just along the coasts, it would be a problem for shipping. 

But as mentioned above I don't think the lake is big enough to require exceedingly large ships. Large ships would only be required for open dangerous seas and long distances.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[sam]

24 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

It is reasonable to expect that they'd have to sit out the winter months. I don't know much about Lake Michigan but even if the ice coverage was just along the coasts, it would be a problem for shipping. 

But as mentioned above I don't think the lake is big enough to require exceedingly large ships. Large ships would only be required for open dangerous seas and long distances.

The exceedingly large ships were exceedingly large compared to canoes would seem very large to the Nephites. Also he went and sailed the west sea and went to the land North not west. It makes complete sense in the great lake model. Also the Hill Cumorah the only place we know exactly the location of is in the great lakes area.

[sam]

24 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

It is reasonable to expect that they'd have to sit out the winter months. I don't know much about Lake Michigan but even if the ice coverage was just along the coasts, it would be a problem for shipping. 

But as mentioned above I don't think the lake is big enough to require exceedingly large ships. Large ships would only be required for open dangerous seas and long distances.

The exceedingly large ships were exceedingly large compared to canoes would seem very large to the Nephites. Also he went and sailed the west sea and went to the land North not west. It makes complete sense in the great lake model. Also the Hill Cumorah the only place we know exactly the location of is in the great lakes area.