Ancient gold plates unearthed

[Atheist Mormon]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

Peter had an interesting comment regarding Paul

2 Peter 3 [15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul was contending with the Judaizers (the law of Moses was still in effect), and got abit carried away with some of  his arguments.  James wrote an epistle to try to straighten things out.

Apostle Paul clashed with every Apostle, community and Clergy.....and more importantly with Matthew Gospel writer....The doctrines they promoted disagree big time....At the end however he won the battle. The unfortunate part was he could not alter Scriptures. 

[Atheist Mormon]

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

No such what exists, guaranteed? 

I'm also not a believer in the supernatural, but I don't find anything in the Book of Mormon that doesn't fit in the 5th century AD. Granted, the story of Jesus descending from the sky and a few other things like Nephi zapping his brothers are unexplainable, but these sort of things appear in all historical texts from that period. 

What is your purpose then?

[Rajah Manchou]

12 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What is your purpose then?

To share my opinion so I can work out the bugs in my thoughts. 

What is you purpose?

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

To share my opinion so I can work out the bugs in my thoughts. 

What is you purpose?

To understand better how a believer's mind works against such overwhelming odds vs reality.

[notHagoth7]

9 hours ago, cdowis said:

Peter had an interesting comment regarding Paul

2 Peter 3 [15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul was contending with the Judaizers (the law of Moses was still in effect), and got abit carried away with some of  his arguments.  James wrote an epistle to try to straighten things out.

Where do you get the impression from that passage that Paul himself went overboard?

? The verses seem to simply say that Paul spoke things that *others* misunderstood and wrested.

 

All I see in the "hard to be understood" passage is a parallel to what Nephi and his brothers discussed in the context of Lehi's vision, when Nephi encouraged them to enquire of the Lord.  For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they ought.

 

(2 Nephi 25, and other passages, say much the same of Isaiah's writings.)

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

Where do you get the impression from that passage that Paul himself went overboard?

From the restored principles in the Restored Gospel, and from modern prophets.  James tried to tamp him down abit.

? The verses seem to simply say that Paul spoke things that *others* misunderstood and wrested.

Yep, and that is exactly happening in our very day.  Those "others" are now "us".

All I see in the "hard to be understood" passage is a parallel to what Nephi and his brothers discussed in the context of Lehi's vision, when Nephi encouraged them to enquire of the Lord.  For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they ought.

 

(2 Nephi 25, and other passages, say much the same of Isaiah's writings.)

You seem to enjoy the game of "let's argue".  OK, you win and I give you the last word.

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by cdowis

[Rajah Manchou]

7 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

To understand better how a believer's mind works against such overwhelming odds vs reality.

TBH I'm also curious about this.

[notHagoth7]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

...You seem to enjoy the game of "let's argue"....

?

[cdowis]

9 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

?

!!

[Hagoth]

Ancient humans had a limited number of materials to write on, and the wrote on all of them. The fact that there exist pieces of metal with writing on them should not be a huge surprise, but neither should it be seen as any kind of validation of the BoM. I think a bigger issue is that there is no evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica or North America until after BoM times, apart from the occasional cold hammering. Hot annealing and copper casting eventually made its way up from South America, but centuries after Moroni buried the plates.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Hagoth said:

Ancient humans had a limited number of materials to write on, and the wrote on all of them. The fact that there exist pieces of metal with writing on them should not be a huge surprise, but neither should it be seen as any kind of validation of the BoM. I think a bigger issue is that there is no evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica or North America until after BoM times, apart from the occasional cold hammering. Hot annealing and copper casting eventually made its way up from South America, but centuries after Moroni buried the plates.

Gold plates in stone boxes with inscriptions do not gain or lose spiritual significance based on whether or not there is metallurgy in Mesoamerica. 

I suspect the smiths that forged (or hammered) these plates had no clue America even existed.

[notHagoth7]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

!!

:0)

[Hagoth]

2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Gold plates in stone boxes with inscriptions do not gain or lose spiritual significance based on whether or not there is metallurgy in Mesoamerica. 

I suspect the smiths that forged (or hammered) these plates had no clue America even existed.

My point exactly. There is absolutely no reason to assume any kind of Book of Mormon evidence from the existence of metal plates and stone boxes  found elsewhere. But you might more accurately claim that the masonic legend of a gold plate with writing on it might have some significance in the Book of Mormon story, since it existed within Joseph Smith's sphere of influence. But, of course, that would only be speculation.

[cdowis]

46 minutes ago, notHagoth7 said:

:0)

[cdowis]

24 minutes ago, Hagoth said:

There is absolutely no reason to assume any kind of Book of Mormon evidence from the existence of metal plates and stone boxes  found elsewhere. 

For me, the majority of apologetics is to refute the arguments of the critics.  The very existence of ancient gold plates as records stored in a stone box makes the narrative more feasible.

The antiMormons had 100 arguments against the BOM, and now there are only have 99.

[Hagoth]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

For me, the majority of apologetics is to refute the arguments of the critics.  The very existence of ancient gold plates as records stored in a stone box makes the narrative more feasible.

The antiMormons had 100 arguments against the BOM, and now there are only have 99.

By the same logic can we assume from the existence of metal swords in the Old World that the Jaredites also had them?

[notHagoth7]

14 minutes ago, Hagoth said:

By the same logic can we assume from the existence of metal swords in the Old World that the Jaredites also had them?

Yes.

Old World testimony asserts powerful armies from the region we now know as the Americas. 

If such had been armed with anything significantly different from typical armaments of that time (for example M16's or cans of Silly String), the accounts would have most likely found it noteworthy enough to mention it. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Hagoth]

1 hour ago, notHagoth7 said:

Yes.

Old World testimony asserts powerful armies from the region we now know as the Americas. 

If such had been armed with anything significantly different from typical armaments of that time (for example M16's or cans of Silly String), the accounts would have most likely found it noteworthy enough to mention it. 

OK, I think you're going to have to be a little more specific about the Old World testimony you're talking about here. Please provide sources.

[waveslider]

10 hours ago, Hagoth said:

copper casting

That is extremely hard to do, unless you mix another metal into it. If you cast copper all by itself it ends up with huge hollow cavities all throughout it.

[Rajah Manchou]

9 hours ago, Hagoth said:

My point exactly. There is absolutely no reason to assume any kind of Book of Mormon evidence from the existence of metal plates and stone boxes found elsewhere. But you might more accurately claim that the masonic legend of a gold plate with writing on it might have some significance in the Book of Mormon story, since it existed within Joseph Smith's sphere of influence. But, of course, that would only be speculation.

There is no known location for the Book of Mormon, so not sure what you mean by "found elsewhere".

I do think its more likely that the Book of Mormon account is related to the masonic lore than to gold plates found in Java. But I also suspect the masonic legends originate in the orient with the legends of golden books that are found from Java to China to Tibet and the Mongol Empire, and probably passed back to Europe through accounts that predate speculative freemasonry and Joseph Smith.

[Rajah Manchou]

5 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

Yes.

Old World testimony asserts powerful armies from the region we now know as the Americas. 

If such had been armed with anything significantly different from typical armaments of that time (for example M16's or cans of Silly String), the accounts would have most likely found it noteworthy enough to mention it. 

3 hours ago, Hagoth said:

OK, I think you're going to have to be a little more specific about the Old World testimony you're talking about here. Please provide sources.

Were these usernames predestined, or foreordained? 

[Hagoth]

10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

There is no known location for the Book of Mormon, so not sure what you mean by "found elsewhere".

I simply meant that finding sheets of gold in Java or China or Timbuktu (but not in the Americas) has no direct bearing on whether gold plates also existed in the Americas, in the same way that finding metal swords in any of those places wouldn't suggest that they also existed in the Americas. Or that because Abraham Lincoln wore a stovepipe hat the emperor of China must also have worn a stovepipe hat.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Hagoth

[notHagoth7]

10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Were these usernames predestined, or foreordained? 

Since my other user name is Hagoth7, I'll let you answer your own question.

Meanwhile, I believe both in free will, and in a healthy sense of humor. :0)

 

[notHagoth7]

15 hours ago, Hagoth said:

OK, I think you're going to have to be a little more specific about the Old World testimony you're talking about here. Please provide sources.

Of course. For starters: 

1. Plato's Critias
2. Plato's Timaeus (portions of which were translated by none other than Hagoth's contemporary, the Roman senator Cicero, whose recently-captured freedman introduced a form of shorthand that even critics of the Book of Mormon acknowledge bears a striking likeness to the characters from what is often called the Anthon manuscript.)

A) Plato specifically said that the home of that civilization was beyond the pillars of Hercules (straits of Gibraltar)

B) Plato also said, among other things, that "...the land surrounding [the civilization] may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent..."

C) Plato specifically said that the home of that civilization was "larger" than two Old World regions/continents combined

(The Atlantic Ocean bears its name for a very distinct reason.)

Edited September 14, 2016 by notHagoth7

[Rajah Manchou]

52 minutes ago, Hagoth said:

I simply meant that finding sheets of gold in Java or China or Timbuktu (but not in the Americas) has no direct bearing on whether gold plates also existed in the Americas, in the same way that finding metal swords in any of those places wouldn't suggest that they also existed in the Americas.

So very true...
Asian Setting for the Book of Mormon
In case you missed my signature.