Holy ghost is divine guidance without living prophets?

[waveslider]

40 minutes ago, James Tunney said:

We are left to guess or pray about it ourselves for confirmation.

Gaining confirmation through prayer leaves no guess work once it has been confirmed by God himself. So this is the better step, "to ensure that we got his words without confusion." It is much more confusing to hear multiple views on what God wants everyone to know. Just look at how many different churches and religions there are in our world, each with it's own answers as to what God has said to us. Without the confirmation of prayer it is all so confusing that many people don't even believe in God. We only need to ask, sincerely and God will tell us each on an individual bases.

[RevTestament]

47 minutes ago, James Tunney said:

Thank you for the response.  I guess for me, its hard to believe that God would speak to others on my behalf.  This formula has been abused repeatedly over the years and has been the basis for many frauds.  President Bush intimated that he was on some God-sanctioned mission to go to war with Iraq back in 2003 and this formula has been used as justification for war many times before. 

Off topic a little, but yeah, I doubt God has told anyone to go to war for a long time now. I recall Bush justifying that war based on supposed weapons of mass destruction, but I personally believe Bush went to war more as protection of the U.S. dollar against Hussein's attempt to bypass the dollar in oil trade. IMHO it was an unjust war. The first one however was to assist Kuwait so was just.

Quote

Also, today, there is no clear formula to determine when the prophet and apostles are speaking directly from God as they won't tell us.  We are left to guess or pray about it ourselves for confirmation.  This is why I said, wouldn't it be easier if God just spoke directly to all of us so we wouldn't have to guess.  For me, it seems logical that if God wanted us to have his words, he would take better steps to ensure that we got his words without confusion.

God did directly speak to JS for the D&C revelations, and he mentions such regarding the revelation concerning the civil war. The current apostles can and do seek guidance and confirmation from the HS. What's wrong with us seeking confirmation? Nothing. I think that is what God expects. Cheers. We are moving from prophecy to prophecy being fulfilled.

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, waveslider said:

I'm sorry for the confusion. It seems I have been having a different definition of the term Prophet. I don't deny that multiple people can, and should be getting prophecies. I just wasn't thinking of them in terms as being a prophet. I was only thinking of ordained prophets. I can see where you guys are all coming from. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No need to apologize friend. You are entitled to your interpretation of things. I tend to be scriptural about things.

Acts 2:17

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Edited July 28, 2016 by RevTestament

[Vance]

16 hours ago, waveslider said:

I'm talking about declaring new revelation for the world, for the first time, not just speaking in General Conference.

Well, even THAT takes the THREE signatures of the First Presidency.

I think I have been using the term prophet in a much tighter definition than most others seem to have. I'm not saying others aren't receiving prophecy. Personally I think we all should be.

BINGO

I'm just simply saying that God works in a very orderly fashion and has called certain people to be the first to introduce new revelations that pertain to the whole world at large, especially since there are means to communicate to the whole world at the same time. In times where that wasn't, or isn't possible multiple people may have that job in order for God's word to reach everyone.

Again, THAT takes the THREE signatures of the First Presidency to make it official.

I think that when a Relief Society President, or Primary President adds an official declaration in the Doctrine and Covenants, I will stand corrected. For now this is what I meant by being the mouthpiece of God, for the whole world. I certainly don't want to take away anything from those who are speaking to the world, through inspired talks, that aren't the ordained Prophet, Seer and Revelator for the Church. Sorry for the confusion in differing definitions of the term prophet.

Actually, you have been corrected.

 

 Apology accepted.

[James Tunney]

On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 9:47 AM, waveslider said:

Gaining confirmation through prayer leaves no guess work once it has been confirmed by God himself. So this is the better step, "to ensure that we got his words without confusion." It is much more confusing to hear multiple views on what God wants everyone to know. Just look at how many different churches and religions there are in our world, each with it's own answers as to what God has said to us. Without the confirmation of prayer it is all so confusing that many people don't even believe in God. We only need to ask, sincerely and God will tell us each on an individual bases.

But don't all religions use the same prayer method? Dont they all use James 1:5? Dont they all claim that prayer will lead you to their particular brand? Isn't that part of the source of confusion? 

[waveslider]

On 7/29/2016 at 9:39 AM, James Tunney said:

But don't all religions use the same prayer method? Dont they all use James 1:5? Dont they all claim that prayer will lead you to their particular brand? Isn't that part of the source of confusion? 

Actually I think it is very rare when a, "particular brand," claims to be the one true church that was set up by Christ himself. I find that most of them claim it doesn't really matter which church you go to as long as it is a Bible based church (which to me, sounds like an admission that their church isn't the one true church anyway). The average follower of most of the mainstream Christian churches, that I have ever talked to, claim that they don't even always agree with what their particular pastor teaches all the time, but that they like this one, or that one, a little better because the follower disagrees with the others more often. I know it is by no means a majority because I am only one human and haven't talked to anywhere close to all followers, so I can't say that it is true for most people, but it is by far more true with all the people I have had conversations with, on this subject. What a confusing way to pick a church if you ask me.

I think much of the confusion comes from people not actually believing that God will truly talk to them. Instead they just take peoples' words as being truth, instead of going directly to the source for truth. They think they need a pastor, or preacher to tell them what the scriptures say. I say try personal study and prayer with full purpose of heart and see where it leads you. Question everything that anyone tells you, whether it is a pastor or a Mormon, or even what you read in the scriptures. If you bring those questions up to God, you will be led by God. I am not telling people which church to join, but rather telling people of my own experiences and answers that have led me to being fully committed to this church, and that they should just test where prayer and study brings them. I really think it is interesting how so many people join this church because they claim to have received confirmation from God that it is the right thing to do, but when people leave this church I don't hear them claim that God confirmed that it is the wrong church to be in. Instead they come to those conclusions by listening to, and reading things created by the logic of people, many times people who claim to be of God. I myself almost fell victim to that, until I actually receive direct answers, and was told of God that I needed to study the scriptures and things every day for my whole life, and that someday I would find out how come it could seem like it is illogical to have this be the true church, but for now for me to just trust that God is telling me that it is true. Eventually I did find out why. Each and ever single anti Mormon literature piece I have ever read, over the past 45 years or so, have without fail, contained at least one (usually more than one) straight up lie, or at least a twisted truth to make it seem like the truth was saying a different thing.

The true confusion comes from the father of all lies, who has been the great deceiver since the beginning. I find there are very many people, including pastors and preachers, who are truly trying to follow God (often times more fully than a lot of members of this church), but are still victims of such deceit. I have seen pastors and preachers gain testimonies of the truthfulness of this church, even while still being a pastor, or preacher. I have seen them have to make difficult choices because they would immediately lose their only source of income they have ever known all their lives, and a faced with the very real threat of not being able to provide for their families, if they joined, since it is a lay ministry in this church. What better way to cause people to not believe in truth, than to create very similar copies of the truth, but interjected with the philosophies of people? The morecopies the better. I have seen so many self professed atheists say they believe that way because they have tried out so many different churches, so much so that they won't even give this church a shot.

[James Tunney]

14 minutes ago, waveslider said:

Actually I think it is very rare when a, "particular brand," claims to be the one true church that was set up by Christ himself. I find that most of them claim it doesn't really matter which church you go to as long as it is a Bible based church (which to me, sounds like an admission that their church isn't the one true church anyway). The average follower of most of the mainstream Christian churches, that I have ever talked to, claim that they don't even always agree with what their particular pastor teaches all the time, but that they like this one, or that one, a little better because the follower disagrees with the others more often. I know it is by no means a majority because I am only one human and haven't talked to anywhere close to all followers, so I can't say that it is true for most people, but it is by far more true with all the people I have had conversations with, on this subject. What a confusing way to pick a church if you ask me.

I think much of the confusion comes from people not actually believing that God will truly talk to them. Instead they just take peoples' words as being truth, instead of going directly to the source for truth. They think they need a pastor, or preacher to tell them what the scriptures say. I say try personal study and prayer with full purpose of heart and see where it leads you. Question everything that anyone tells you, whether it is a pastor or a Mormon, or even what you read in the scriptures. If you bring those questions up to God, you will be led by God. I am not telling people which church to join, but rather telling people of my own experiences and answers that have led me to being fully committed to this church, and that they should just test where prayer and study brings them. I really think it is interesting how so many people join this church because they claim to have received confirmation from God that it is the right thing to do, but when people leave this church I don't hear them claim that God confirmed that it is the wrong church to be in. Instead they come to those conclusions by listening to, and reading things created by the logic of people, many times people who claim to be of God. I myself almost fell victim to that, until I actually receive direct answers, and was told of God that I needed to study the scriptures and things every day for my whole life, and that someday I would find out how come it could seem like it is illogical to have this be the true church, but for now for me to just trust that God is telling me that it is true. Eventually I did find out why. Each and ever single anti Mormon literature piece I have ever read, over the past 45 years or so, have without fail, contained at least one (usually more than one) straight up lie, or at least a twisted truth to make it seem like the truth was saying a different thing.

The true confusion comes from the father of all lies, who has been the great deceiver since the beginning. I find there are very many people, including pastors and preachers, who are truly trying to follow God (often times more fully than a lot of members of this church), but are still victims of such deceit. I have seen pastors and preachers gain testimonies of the truthfulness of this church, even while still being a pastor, or preacher. I have seen them have to make difficult choices because they would immediately lose their only source of income they have ever known all their lives, and a faced with the very real threat of not being able to provide for their families, if they joined, since it is a lay ministry in this church. What better way to cause people to not believe in truth, than to create very similar copies of the truth, but interjected with the philosophies of people? The morecopies the better. I have seen so many self professed atheists say they believe that way because they have tried out so many different churches, so much so that they won't even give this church a shot.

I appreciate your response.  Do you think that questioning church leaders is advisable?  Don't they say otherwise?  What do you make of the often repeated counsel that answers to prayers at odds with church leaders are obviously false?

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, James Tunney said:

I appreciate your response.  Do you think that questioning church leaders is advisable?  Don't they say otherwise?  What do you make of the often repeated counsel that answers to prayers at odds with church leaders are obviously false?

I have never seen that the church leaders say that we shouldn't question them. If you have, then you can kindly point them out to me and I'll be more than interested to read them. I personally haven't had answers to prayers that were at odds with what the church leaders have taught. There is no fear of questions as long as it is truth that is being questioned. Even the Book Of Mormon tells us to question things:

"4  And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5  And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."
Moroni 10:4-5

That is one of the things that stands out in the true church. If you teach by the Holy Ghost you will not only be secure in having people take it up with God as to what is being said is truth or not, but you will encourage such questions. Here is a quote directly out of the Preach My Gospel manual, which is a guideline for all missionaries to follow in order to do missionary work:

"Personal Revelation
 Joseph Smith said, "Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it" (History of the Church, 3:389). You will succeed in your work as you learn to receive and follow personal revelation. Joseph Smith also taught that revelation is vital for your daily work: "This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted-by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed" (History of the Church, 5:135).
 God loves you and all His children. He is anxious to support you in your practical and specific challenges. You have been promised inspiration to know what to do and have been given the power to do it (see D&C 43:15-16). He will help you as you try to recognize and understand the Spirit through diligent scripture study. He will guide you to people who will receive the message of the Restoration. He will give you power to deliver the message and to testify of Christ and His gospel. He will shower His blessings upon you through the gift of the Holy Ghost. He asks that you remain worthy of this gift and that you ask, seek, and knock (see D&C 4:7; Matthew 7:7-8).
 We live in the day prophesied by Book of Mormon prophets-a day when people will "contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance" (2 Nephi 28:4; see also 3 Nephi 29:6; Mormon 9:7-8). Yet many people also yearn for spiritual things. As you learn to receive personal revelation, you will teach with power and authority (see Alma 17:3) because the Holy Ghost gives you power to speak (see 1 Nephi 10:22).
 You need to seek and receive personal revelation through the Holy Ghost as you help people become baptized and confirmed. Have faith that you will receive personal revelation to guide you from day to day. The Holy Ghost will help you in every aspect of your work."
Preach My Gospel, Recognize, Understand the Spirit

It would be news to me if I found somewhere, that one of the church leaders doesn't want us to question everything in a petition to God, so we can know with a full confirmation directly from the source that what is being taught is indeed true. If you know of anything please cite it so I can see it too. Thank you.

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

It would be news to me if I found somewhere, that one of the church leaders doesn't want us to question everything in a petition to God, so we can know with a full confirmation directly from the source that what is being taught is indeed true. If you know of anything please cite it so I can see it too. Thank you.

I remember in Seminary being taught that we are NOT supposed to pray about whether what the Prophet says is true - we are just supposed to accept it because he's the Prophet.  I remember this because I was "that kid" who always got 100% on the tests (which the other kids good-naturedly teased me about), and my answer on that question was marked wrong.  That's the only test question I still remember from four years of Seminary.   

Edited July 31, 2016 by Eek!

[waveslider]

4 minutes ago, Eek! said:

I remember in Seminary being taught that we are NOT supposed to pray about whether what the Prophet says is true - we are just supposed to accept it because he's the Prophet.  I remember this because I was "that kid" who always got 100% on the tests (which the other kids good-naturedly teased me about), and my answer on that question was marked wrong.  That's the only test question I still remember from four years of Seminary.   

I never was taught that in church, nor in seminary, not even when I was a seminary teacher myself. I think you should question your seminary teacher, to find out any references to see why that was marked wrong (personally I think the seminary teacher should get marked wrong on that one). I was actually told to do the opposite, by a bishop, before I got a testimony. That is how I got my testimony because God isn't going to give you an opposite answer in conflict with himself and I actually took that bishop up on the offer to do just that, and question whether the prophet Joseph Smith was telling the truth or not, and if the Book Of Mormon was true or not, while reading it and pondering these things.

[Eek!]

55 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I never was taught that in church, nor in seminary, not even when I was a seminary teacher myself. I think you should question your seminary teacher, to find out any references to see why that was marked wrong (personally I think the seminary teacher should get marked wrong on that one).

The sheets with the test questions appeared to have been provided by the Church to the seminary teacher.  It was "home study" seminary, so the class only met once a week, and I doubt that the couple teaching the class made up their own tests - all of the material seemed to have been provided to them.  I remember the teacher looked in a manual to double-check and apparently to find the explanation for why my answer was wrong (I was certain they'd made a mistake, that's why I questioned it). 

So my inclination would be to question whoever produced the lesson material, rather than to question the teachers who presented it like they were supposed to, even if they weren't entirely comfortable with it themselves (the husband seemed completely comfortable with it, but it looked to me like the wife was going along with rather reluctantly). 

Edited July 31, 2016 by Eek!

[waveslider]

12 minutes ago, Eek! said:

The sheets with the test questions appeared to have been provided by the Church to the seminary teacher.  It was "home study" seminary, so the class only met once a week, and I doubt that the couple teaching the class made up their own tests - all of the material seemed to have been provided to them.  I remember the teacher looked in a manual to double-check and apparently to find the explanation for why my answer was wrong (I was certain they'd made a mistake, that's why I questioned it). 

So my inclination would be to question whoever produced the lesson material, rather than to question the teachers who presented it like they were supposed to, even if they weren't entirely comfortable with it themselves (the husband seemed completely comfortable with it, but it looked to me like the wife was going along with rather reluctantly). 

Well it wouldn't be the first mistake ever made, or perhaps it was something taken out of context when it got put into a question. Anyway. I have personally never seen anything from the church that tells us that we shouldn't go in prayer, to question things, including what the prophets tell us. I have always been taught the contrary, to gain a testimony of these types of things for myself through personal revelation. I do, however think that when we do question things it should be done in all sincerity to God, and not to try and manipulate some kind of answer, one way or another, in order to rationalize rebellious behavior, or something. I'm no authority by any means for the church. Also I have been taught that a prophet can't lead us wrongly or else God would intervene, although I don't know off hand where that would be written, so perhaps that might be the context of your seminary question.

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

Also I have been taught that a prophet can't lead us wrongly or else God would intervene, although I don't know off hand where that would be written...

I think that comes from President Woodruff, whose leadership was probably questioned by some when he issued the Manifesto.  He said, "The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

One question that comes to mind is, how do we know President Woodruff wasn't mistaken when he said that?   How do we know there really is a divine guarantee that the President will never lead the church astray?  At a minimum, I think we'd have to pray about that one and get a pretty strong answer. 

Edited July 31, 2016 by Eek!

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Eek! said:

I remember in Seminary being taught that we are NOT supposed to pray about whether what the Prophet says is true - we are just supposed to accept it because he's the Prophet.  I remember this because I was "that kid" who always got 100% on the tests (which the other kids good-naturedly teased me about), and my answer on that question was marked wrong.  That's the only test question I still remember from four years of Seminary.   

Then you were taught false doctrine

There is no way for a convert to even know whether or not he should follow the prophet in the first place were it not for the HG to confirm the doctrine

I am always amazed these ideas that life long Mormons dream up without even thinking about the implications of their statements

Conversion would be impossible if that were correct.

[Eek!]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Then you were taught false doctrine

There is no way for a convert to even know whether or not he should follow the prophet in the first place were it not for the HG to confirm the doctrine

I am always amazed these ideas that life long Mormons dream up without even thinking about the implications of their statements

Conversion would be impossible if that were correct.

I agree.

I had just joined the LDS Church a couple of years previous. I couldn't believe that this Church that had a special ordinance for giving me the Gift of the Holy Ghost was now telling me not to use that Gift when it came to their President.  That made no sense to me then, nor does it now. 

[mfbukowski]

He can teach us the truth of "ALL things".

And now everyone is admitting that mistakes happen even with prophets

President Uchtdorf in General Conference

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

Quote

 

Mistakes of Imperfect People

And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings. God is perfect, and His doctrine is pure. But He works through us—His imperfect children—and imperfect people make mistakes.

In the title page of the Book of Mormon we read, “And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.”6

This is the way it has always been and will be until the perfect day when Christ Himself reigns personally upon the earth.

It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed.