Book of Alma

[Brant Gardner]

16 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The Malay Peninsula lines up the best with internal maps. Since seeing it, I can't unsee it. 

Which is the reason that all geographies should be investigated and analyzed. It is also the reason that geography alone doesn't do too much. While there are aspects of this model that seem possible, it doesn't fit when placed into the larger context of the actions and history in the text. So it can be made to look like a decent geography, but still can't pass the full test.

[Rajah Manchou]

8 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

Which is the reason that all geographies should be investigated and analyzed. It is also the reason that geography alone doesn't do too much. While there are aspects of this model that seem possible, it doesn't fit when placed into the larger context of the actions and history in the text. So it can be made to look like a decent geography, but still can't pass the full test.

After investigating and analyzing, I'm confident that the larger context does fit. I have yet to find a conflict with the text. 

• Three distinct cultures, two in the north (2500 BC and 600 BC) and one in the south (535 BC)
• High civilizations with kings and priests and city-states. 
• Agricultural base to support several millions of people.
• Highly literate society with written language and scribes as important officers
• Functional calendar and dating systems
• Merchant class using weights and measures
• Engineers to build temples, towers, highways, using cement
• Land north becomes arid and desolate after deforestation to fire bricks for buildings and temples
• Highly-skilled craftsmen-precious metals, stonework
• Warrior society, great battles, structured armies, sophisticated fortifications
• Marriage alliances
• Earthquake 2000 years ago
• Complete overthrow of social and political systems around 420 AD 
• Legends of a period of darkness when dead return to visit around 35 AD
• Existing tribes named Zoram claiming descent from Manasseh
• Existing tribes waiting for the return of the Son of God and a lost golden book under care of the descendents of the youngest of seven brothers
• Land north known anciently as Mron, Moro, Moron, Rahma and Kamara/Cumara
• Proposed candidate for Zarahemla known anciently as the "Walled City of Sra"
• All of the above criteria in a place marked by a narrow neck of land
• Major river flowing south to north
• Extensive archeological ruins that remain unexcavated
• Enormous region called Zomia that has sheltered refugees and exiled tribes from states and kings, Joseph Smith interprets Zom as "Zion"
• Existing river known presently as Sidon
• Island in the sea or peninsular setting
• Historical account in south claiming founder of first kingdom came by boat via the Red Sea
• Historical account in north that founder of first kingdom came by boat after having a divine vision
• Another historical account in north that first founder was an exiled prince from the west
• Geography fits
• Domesticated elephants
• Silk
• Walled cities with wooden towers and earthen embankments
• Horses, chariots, iron, steel, swords
• There's more...

I've mentioned much of this before with no response, which is fine, but if you're going to make the statement that this model doesn't pass the test, then also take a moment to explain why. What do you find impossible about it?

Edited July 17, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Brant Gardner]

On 7/16/2016 at 4:47 AM, Rajah Manchou said:

13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

After investigating and analyzing, I'm confident that the larger context does fit. I have yet to find a conflict with the text. 

I've mentioned much of this before with no response, which is fine, but if you're going to make the statement that this model doesn't pass the test, then also take a moment to explain why. What do you find impossible about it?

I looked at this model, at least the Sunstone version of it. This link will give you what I see as the problems.

[BCSpace]

Quote

I've mentioned much of this before with no response, which is fine, but if you're going to make the statement that this model doesn't pass the test, then also take a moment to explain why. What do you find impossible about it?

I think it's cool that it's fleshed out and defended. Definitely a paradigm shift though.

 

[Rajah Manchou]

12 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

I looked at this model, at least the Sunstone version of it. This link will give you what I see as the problems.

Thanks. Olsen's Sunstone version is 12 years old, and as noted in the comment section on the article he passed away before being able to publish a response. There is a new map now that resolves the issues you have pointed out, and also adds hundreds of non-random convergences. As I have mentioned above, if these are all a result of random coincidence then it is not only very bizarre, but it also challenges the validity of the convergence methodology. However, I do not see how it could possibly be coincidence.

I've responded to your points. 

"The most important consideration in pinning the text to a map is to establish some measure of distance."

You can see the new maps in my earlier post demonstrating the accuracy of distances: Zarahemla, Land Northward, Land Southward.

"Most difficult for his proposal is the textual evidence of the proximity of Bountiful to the narrow neck of land....that makes the distance from Bountiful to the narrow neck over two day’s journey south. That is too long a distance to guard an entrance to the land northward."

In the new map, Bountiful is placed in Chumphon province, just south of the narrow pass on the narrow neck. Coincidently, Chumphon in Thai is translated as follows:

The word “Chumphon” comprises two words which are “Chum”, meaning either gathering, a large number, many, or together and “Phon”, meaning good things, selected things, or blessed things. Hence, if “Chumphon” is literally translated, it means the gathering place of blessings. However, the actual meaning of the name is different. As for the first story about the city’s name, it is believed that “Chumphon” was derived from the word “Prachumpol” or “ Chumnumphol” which means “gathering soldiers”, as Chumphon was a southern frontier city. So, the armies always set up their camps in Chumphon in preparation for the battle with Burmese or domestic insurgents. Since the city was always a place for gathering soldiers, it is possible that “Chumphon” was the shortened word of “Prachumphol”...Therefore, the meaning of the word “Prachumphol” aligns to Chumphon’s strategic importance in its history. (source)

The name of the candidate for Bountiful fits not only the meaning of the word Bountiful (gathering of good things) but also identifies its historical role as the place where armies from the north would gather to repel insurgent attacks from the south.

"The presence of east and west seas matches descriptions in the Book of Mormon. However, as with the general orientation and being nearly surrounded, this requirement is too general. It cannot be used to separate the validity of this model against any other Peninsula or island. "

The new map resolves this issue and identifies the seas named in the Book of Mormon text. The sea west is the Andaman Sea. The sea east is the Gulf of Thailand. The sea north is the Bay of Bandon. The sea south is the Malacca Strait. The Malay Peninsula was called the Golden Island in classical texts and indigenous tribes still refer to it as the Great Island.

Both Thailand and Burma are farther north than his Hill Ramah, which was the Jaredite name for the Hill Cumorah. That places both Thailand and Burma way too far north to participate in the geography as described in the Book of Mormon.

I think you may have mis-located these countries in this comment. The candidate for the Hill Ramah is in Thailand, just a few miles east of Myanmar (Burma). Coincidently, the candidate for Hill Ramah is a prominent mountain with a national park to preserve its many waterfalls on the south slope. It is positioned in a way that a large gathering of soldiers could camp around the mountain and still be on the beach. (satellite image)

His distance from Zarahemla to his Hill Ramah/Cumorah is about 533 miles along assumed straight land paths. That makes it about 13 days journey (using 60 miles as his “1.5 day’s journey”). 

The distance between Zarahemla and Hill Ramah on the new map is about 200 miles. This is closer than the distance between Zarahemla and Cumorah in most Meso models.

The Book of Mormon consistently notes that the Lamanites are more numerous than the Nephites. Olsen’s map provides that more numerous population about one fifth of the land mass he suggests for the whole Book of Mormon text. Because land directly relates to the ability to feed a population, this cannot be correct.

This has also been corrected in the new map. The new placement of the Land Southward allows the Lamanites plenty of agricultural land that for millennia has sustained populations over one million. The area around Songklha Lake (which would be in Lamanite territory) could support 750,000 people around Book of Mormon times. The present population of Peninsular Malaysia is 22 million. Today Malaysia grows almost 80% of their grain locally, mostly in Kedah Province which is known as the rice bowl of Malaysia, and the location of the candidate for the Land of Nephi.

The Sidon is clearly an important determination for a plausible location for the Book of Mormon. The absence of a river would disqualify the model. A river running south would disqualify the model. However, the presence of a river running north cannot nail the model. 

The candidate for the Sidon River in the new map fits the Book of Mormon description better than most models. The headwaters flow first from east to west out of a narrow strip of wilderness. The river then runs north past the ancient city of Wiang Sra (500 BC), which translated means "Walled Settlement of Sra". Wiang Sra was once the capital (known in SE Asia as the mandala) of this region with strong relationships to the coastal cities on the west and east. This is a prime candidate for the walled city of Zarahemla.

“The Karen tribe migrated to Burma from Yunnan during the sixth to seventh centuries A.D. and the Burmese entered Burma from the north during the eighth to ninth centuries A.D. The Tai (also known as Shan) invaded from Yunnan also during the eighth to ninth centuries A.D.” In the very important task of finding the right people at the right time, Olsen’s model has his “Lamanite” candidates arriving over 1200 years too late. Without a correlation to a specific people who lived at the appropriate time, this is a significant disqualification.

The Karen themselves claim to be the first inhabitants of the region. It is likely that they are related to the Kanran/Kanyan tribe that coexisted with the Pyu, who began building walled cities between the 3rd and 2nd century BC. "Karen" is an Anglicisation of the Burmese word "Kayin", whose etymology is unclear. The word, which was originally a derogatory term referring to non-Buddhist ethnic groups, may have come from the Mon language, or is a corruption of Kanyan, the name of a vanished civilization. (source). The interesting thing about the name Kayin, is that it is also the Hebrew word for Kenite. Some Mormon scholars have suggested that the Lehites were Kenites (source). The Rechabites of the Narrative of Zosimus were also Kenites, a point that will be explained in more detail below. Regardless of what these early tribes were named, metallurgy appears in the north around 2500 BC, and iron production in the south around 535 BC. 

This convergence fails for two reasons. The first, and most important, is that the Karens are way too late in history to be a Book of Mormon people (as noted above). The second is that the description of “Jewish affinities” is asserted but not demonstrated. Even had they been at the correct time, the correlation to Jewish practices requires detailed analysis, not simply assertion.

As mentioned above, it is likely that the Karen are related to the Kanyan that date back to the 3rd century BC. The Karen do not claim Jewish ancestry, but they do claim to come from the west, and like 90% of the hilltribes in Southeast Asia they have a variation of a legend of a lost book that was taken west by their youngest brother. Some legends claim this book was made of gold and contains the full truth of god. There are other tribes in the region that claim to descend from the Tribe of Manasseh. They live in the land they call Zoram and their historians claim that they are direct descendants of Joseph of Egypt. Their customs and practices have been analyzed and they have been officially recognized by the Israeli Knesset as Jews. Although controversial, their identification as Jews is not just a simple assertion.

As with the Karen, Olsen relies on Nibley. For all of Nibley’s talent, he was a man of his times and many of the things he wrote early in his career were based on now-outdated scholarship. This is one of them. The writing system is categorized separately from Egyptian, inheriting instead the Indo-Aryan script.

The existing writing systems of Southeast Asia are based on Brahmi via Pallava. Brahmi is of course based on Proto-Sinaitic -> Phoenician -> Aramaic. Almost all Brahmic systems of Southeast Asia are abugidas. The only other abugidas known in the world is Ge'ez. Meroitic, oddly enough, also has some similarities to the abugidas.

But regardless, there is evidence that a writing system existed on the Malay Peninsula before the arrival of the Brahmi scripts. According to one Chinese account there were large archives of texts on the peninsula written in a western "hu" script. This script has not yet been identified. Almost all the tribes in the region have the legend of once possessing a script and books that they lost due to neglect or divine punishment.

The idea that silk is present in the general area is perhaps suggestive, but the actual history is less persuasive. The history of silk in the Malay Peninsula begins with trade and only much later was produced in the area. Production dates to around the 15th Century A.D...This would have been a convergence with the text if the dating were better. Olsen uses Ether 10:24 as one of his references. My dating of that time period places it prior to 560 B.C.34 That would require silk trade in the Book of Mormon 400 years earlier than its known presence in the Malay Peninsula. 

3000 year old silk fibers have been found in Thailand.

Olsen’s idea that the 3 Nephi events are volcanic is supported by other researchers, but he has the volcanoes too far away and without known eruptions during the appropriate time period. While the general correspondence appears valid, the specifics are weak. This cannot count as a convergence due to distance and time from appropriate volcanic activity.

The region west and south of the Malay Peninsula is a highly active volcanic zone and the effects of eruptions along the Sunda Arc are often felt on the Malay Peninsula. Just a few months ago an eruption occurred 200 miles from the area proposed as the Land of Nephi in this model. Larger eruptions in this region throughout history have affected crop growth and seasonal cycles as far away as upstate New York. The Smith family was forced to leave Vermont after their crops failed following the eruption of Mount Tambora in Indonesia in 1815. In any case there is an active fault line that runs from the west sea to the east sea, directly through the candidate locations for Ammonihah and Bountiful. Records show a large earthquake occurred there 2000 years ago and hilltribe histories tell of a period of "great darkness that was preceded by fire and accompanied by flood" around 25-40 AD. The interesting thing said about the event was that the ghosts (spirits) of the dead visit human beings. (Source)

Olsen does not trace any of the names to the appropriate time period, which is required to even begin to make the analysis. The similarity of place names is based upon the presumption that visual similarity must mean actual connections. That is a linguistic fallacy that has been overused in any number of situations.

Since this region was mostly unknown to the west during Book of Mormon times it is difficult to trace names to the appropriate period. But we do have some clues. The most interesting is the identification of a region known as Camara or Qamara since at least the 2nd or 3rd century AD. This is likely a confused reference to the Khmer people of Cambodia. But other Greek and Roman accounts identify the people in this region as Rahmans, which could be a reference to the Brahmans or the Raman (Mon people) of the northern Malay Peninsula. In either case, these accounts are always closely related to the island paradise close to Eden or the Land of the Blessed described in the Narrative of Zosimus. The Rechabites are identified by some authors as Camarines or Rahmans and in medieval times before the discovery of America, this island paradise was identified by Russian and Armenian explorers as the Malay Peninsula. Bardesan, Pseudo-Clement and Origen also place these people in Far East, the Malay Peninsula in particular.

"Bardesan’s account of the laws of the Seres, supplemented in Texts quite helpfully by the original Syriac Book of the Laws of the Nations, as well as the similar excerpts by Pseudo-Clement and Origen, depict the Seres as an Edenic people untouched by pagan customs. An anomalous case is the Expositio Totius Mundi et Gentium from the 4th century, which has the Camarini as the furthest eastern peoples in place of the Seres; yet they too are long lived and maintain order through unwritten laws. The inclination, beginning with Pliny, to present the Far East as a perfect world to be aspired to seems to persist within the classical tradition." (source)

"Such are Aelian’s satyr people, maybe inspired loosely by the islands of the satyrs found in Ptolemy, or the valuable account of the Camarini in the Expositio Totius Mundi et Gentium. Might the Camarini have referred to the Cambodian Khmers? There are also the lands of Chryse and Argyre, in Pomponius Mela and Ptolemy, which may refer to the Malayan Peninsula." (source)

These references in Greek, Roman and Judeo-Christian texts to a Blessed People living in peace near a land called Cumara on some Ptolemaic maps could be the clearest historical reference to the 200 years of peace mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Also, see here a very clear reference to "a people called Emer" in the same region as the Camarini. In my opinion, the unusual resemblance of the Book of Mormon internal geography with the peninsula that many classical authors identified as the island destination of Zosimus is the strongest piece of evidence for Book of Mormon historicity yet. But if all this turns out to be nothing but randomness, I wonder how accurate the convergence methodology can be. Right or wrong, the Malay model has some pretty serious implications.

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Rajah Manchou]

Oh well. I realize its a far out idea.

But I want to follow up on the last post with a map of the proposed model that is easier to follow, and add what I've put together on the convergences Gardner has identified plus a fourth category of material convergences.

On 7/17/2016 at 10:28 AM, Brant Gardner said:

Which is the reason that all geographies should be investigated and analyzed. It is also the reason that geography alone doesn't do too much. While there are aspects of this model that seem possible, it doesn't fit when placed into the larger context of the actions and history in the text. So it can be made to look like a decent geography, but still can't pass the full test.

The common response to this model is to claim that it is a parody resulting from a few loose parallels without any analysis of the larger context. This isn't true. Not only does it pass the physical geography test, but it passes all the other requirements mentioned in your article.

1. Geospatial Convergences: The text and a physical geography line up.
2. Chronological Convergences: Textual events and history correlate to the same time.
3. Cultural Convergences: The culture indicated in the Book of Mormon match with that found in the geography at the appropriate time.
4. Material Convergences: The material culture indicated in the Book of Mormon match with that found in the proposed geography at the appropriate time.

It was buried deep in the post above, so its worth mentioning again that the strongest piece of evidence for this model is its ability to expand on the relationship between the Rechabites/Camarini of Judeo-Christian tradition and the Khmer of Southeast Asia. This Book of Mormon geography is in the same location identified in many early texts as the Land of the Blessed found in the History of the Rechabites. If there is a relationship between the History of the Rechabites and the Book of Mormon as LDS and non-LDS scholars have suggested, than this is a strong convergence.

“Palladius’ work seems also to have been an influence on the author of the Christian work known as the Life of Zosimus and also as the History of the Rechabites, which combines details of the Brahmans’ way of life with Jewish legends about the land of ‘the Blessed’ or the sons of Yonadab. In addition, the Expositio Mundi et Gentium, a Christian Latin cosmography dateable to AD 359 describes the life of the Camarini in the Far East, perhaps in Eden itself.” (source)

 

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Brant Gardner]

Quick lists of parallels between a place and the Book of Mormon can be made to look pretty good. The real issue is whether the actual details are as good at the description. I'll take a simple one: 

Quote

Olsen’s idea that the 3 Nephi events are volcanic is supported by other researchers, but he has the volcanoes too far away and without known eruptions during the appropriate time period. While the general correspondence appears valid, the specifics are weak. This cannot count as a convergence due to distance and time from appropriate volcanic activity.

The region west and south of the Malay Peninsula is a highly active volcanic zone and the effects of eruptions along the Sunda Arc are often felt on the Malay Peninsula. Just a few months ago an eruption occurred 200 miles from the area proposed as the Land of Nephi in this model. Larger eruptions in this region throughout history have affected crop growth and seasonal cycles as far away as upstate New York. The Smith family was forced to leave Vermont after their crops failed following the eruption of Mount Tambora in Indonesia in 1815. In any case there is an active fault line that runs from the west sea to the east sea, directly through the candidate locations for Ammonihah and Bountiful. Records show a large earthquake occurred there 2000 years ago and hilltribe histories tell of a period of "great darkness that was preceded by fire and accompanied by flood" around 25-40 AD. The interesting thing said about the event was that the ghosts (spirits) of the dead visit human beings. (Source)

There is information in the response that is intended to make a plausible case. Does it? First, there were very specific geological and meteorological elements required by the text. All of those require close proximity. For those not familiar with the region, mentioning Tambora in Indonesia might seem appropriate to Malaysia--except that it is around a thousand miles away from what would have been Lamanite territory in this model--and farther from Nephite which has to be farther north. It is a multiple islands away, and while there is the possibility of a tsunami, that tsunami should affect the south. There is too much land in the way for it to get north.

It is true that the Tambora eruption in 1815 blew enough debris into the atmosphere to cause a world wide extended winter, but that isn't what the Book of Mormon describes, either. The textual descriptions speak of noise and earth shaking for significantly longer than earthquakes last--so that cannot be the answer (and that is from a geologist, not my opinion--see Jerry Grover). 

So, things can be said that make it appear that maybe this works, but not if you look at the details. 

 

[Rajah Manchou]

13 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

For those not familiar with the region, mentioning Tambora in Indonesia might seem appropriate to Malaysia--except that it is around a thousand miles away from what would have been Lamanite territory in this model--and farther from Nephite which has to be farther north. It is a multiple islands away, and while there is the possibility of a tsunami, that tsunami should affect the south. There is too much land in the way for it to get north.

It is true that the Tambora eruption in 1815 blew enough debris into the atmosphere to cause a world wide extended winter, but that isn't what the Book of Mormon describes, either. The textual descriptions speak of noise and earth shaking for significantly longer than earthquakes last--so that cannot be the answer (and that is from a geologist, not my opinion--see Jerry Grover). 

I did reference more than Tambora. But that was a longwinded post, so it could have easily slipped through the cracks. My first example of volcanoes in the region was an eruption happening now 200 miles from the Malay Peninsula. It has been raining ash down on Medan as it blows east towards the Malay Peninsula. 200 miles might be too far for a dirty lightning show, but its not too far to hang a dark vaporous cloud over the peninsula. It happens frequently.

"Peninsular Malaysia has the potential to be affected by volcanic activity occurring in Sumatra. There are 37 volcanoes with thermal activity in Sumatra, and any one or several of them can erupt at anytime since they are located close a volatile subduction zone."

I mentioned Tambora only as evidence that these ash clouds, often blowing over the Malay Peninsula, are so thick that they can cause crop failure in New York. You mentioned Tambora being 1000 miles away, but that is just one of almost 100 active volcanoes in the Sunda Arc. For those not familiar with the region, the Sunda Arc extends to within 200 miles of the west coast of the Malay Peninsula. This belt has more active volcanoes than any other region, yet only 0.4% of known eruptions there have been dated by other than historical techniques (source).

Besides, as you know, volcanoes are not mentioned specifically in the text. All that the text requires is a period of darkness with fires, floods, noises, tempests, lightning, thunder, death and destruction around 34 AD. A hyperlocal volcano is a tempting solution to those requirements, but it is not the only option. Fire and lightning can occur without a volcano. For example:

Quote

"The period of ‘Thimzing’ is believed to be between A.D. 25-40. This unusual total darkness befell humanity for consecutive 7 days and 7 nights. There was shortage of dry firewood and other daily essential items. The interesting thing said about the unusual event was that the ghosts (spirits) of the dead visit human beings...The clansmen gathered together at the house of the chieftain and sang together...The song they sang goes: “Darkness befall upon me; Disgustingly I am discouraged, The darkness look like a heap of clouds, covered by a heap of dark clouds, The spirit of toleration diminishes, Like a Yak I exclaimed, A pack of shivering Yaks, we sang a group chorus”. Some people have died of the unusual darkness." (source)

"The Lhotas, have a legend of a period of great darkness and floods over the earth and fires (The Thimzing), during which the greater part of mankind was drowned." (source)

The period known as Thimzing demonstrates that events closely resembling the destructive events recorded in the Book of Mormon were known to the indigenous people in Burma at the right time, even down to the correct decade. I also have a longer list of events supporting the claim that tsunamis, tempests, fires, and earthquakes are common to this region. Here are the most recent events:

• Tsunamis along the west coast: 12 years ago one of the 10 most powerful earthquakes in history produced the most destructive tsunami in history.
• Storms along the coast of the Land Northward: Cyclone Nargis in 2008 killed over 80,000 people through storm surges and flooding.
• Earthquakes between Ammonihah and Bountiful: A 7.0 occurred along the Marui Fault 2000 years ago demonstrating that a dangerous slip zone was active during the proper timeframe.

With the above details, does this model pass or fail the 3rd Nephi test?

13 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

Quick lists of parallels between a place and the Book of Mormon can be made to look pretty good. The real issue is whether the actual details are as good at the description. So, things can be said that make it appear that maybe this works, but not if you look at the details. 

Well, I feel I've already rambled on too long with links and sources and maps in the last two posts with little feedback on this model, so I don't know how useful and welcome it would be to post more. There should be enough resolution already there to falsify, I just haven't found anybody willing to try that yet. If anybody is interested I can provide sources to all the bullet points in the quick list(s) of parallels.

Also, the 3-4 maps I have provided above are quite detailed, at least more detailed than anything I've found in maps of the Meso and Heartland models. Those Meso maps hardly agree with each other let alone with a physical geography of Mexico, or the cardinal directions of north vs. south. 


 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Brant Gardner]

How many close matches does it take to counter a major miss? There are no volcanoes close enough to produce the descriptions in 3 Nephi. You have ground upheavals and ground tremors. Take a look at Grover's Geology of the Book of Mormon and see if you can find a corollary for any of those features and conditions that he describes. Those descriptions (including a volcano that could produce the events listed that erupted in the correct time period). Those are tight correlations. 

Matching a feature or two, but being too far away to fit the rest of them does not make a good correlation. Every proposed geographic correlation has points that can be argued. That is why there are so many of them. However, very, very few can survive very close examination. There is always at least one major problem that cannot be overcome. In the case of Malaysia, you cannot find a way to fit all of the 3 Nephi descriptions. Those events are described in remarkable detail and are sufficiently unusual as to require some very specific conditions to produce them. Then the text seems to insist that the Nephites had been able to experience all of them first hand. That rules out the distances required to come close in Malaysia.

[Rajah Manchou]

5 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

How many close matches does it take to counter a major miss? There are no volcanoes close enough to produce the descriptions in 3 Nephi. You have ground upheavals and ground tremors. Take a look at Grover's Geology of the Book of Mormon and see if you can find a corollary for any of those features and conditions that he describes. Those descriptions (including a volcano that could produce the events listed that erupted in the correct time period). Those are tight correlations. 

Matching a feature or two, but being too far away to fit the rest of them does not make a good correlation. Every proposed geographic correlation has points that can be argued. That is why there are so many of them. However, very, very few can survive very close examination. There is always at least one major problem that cannot be overcome. In the case of Malaysia, you cannot find a way to fit all of the 3 Nephi descriptions. Those events are described in remarkable detail and are sufficiently unusual as to require some very specific conditions to produce them. Then the text seems to insist that the Nephites had been able to experience all of them first hand. That rules out the distances required to come close in Malaysia.

With the documented history of cyclones, earthquakes and tsunamis in the Land Northward and the string of volcanoes in the Sunda Arc, I believe I've already identified corollaries for the events Jerry Grover describes.

But maybe I misunderstand. Are you saying that a volcano is a requirement because of the fires and lightning? I might need to reread his paper but doesn't Grover say that a volcano is a requirement because that is the only natural explanation for the vapours/mists of darkness? I don't think he requires them for the fires as they can have any number of causes, including earthquakes and lightning. 

The volcanoes of the Sunda Arc are close enough to cause days of darkness all across Southeast Asia and even well beyond. According to David Keyes, Krakatoa caused 18 months of global darkness in 535/536 AD. 

“The sun gave forth its light without brightness like the moon during this whole year.” - Roman historian Procopius

“There was a sign from the sun, the like of which had never been seen and reported before. The sun became dark and its darkness lasted for 18 months.  Each day, it shone for about four hours, and still this light was only a feeble shadow.  Everyone declared that the sun would never recover its full light again.” - John of Ephesus

“The sun began to be darkened by day and the moon by night.” - Zacharias of Mytilene

"The sun became dim for nearly the whole year.” - John the Lydian

But again, I don't see a need to validate this model with a local volcano. Its not a constraint on the text. And I find the tribal accounts of a period of intense darkness and transformation with fires and floods dating back to 25-40 AD to be much stronger evidence of the historicity of the events in 3rd Nephi.

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Rajah Manchou]

20 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

How many close matches does it take to counter a major miss? There are no volcanoes close enough to produce the descriptions in 3 Nephi. You have ground upheavals and ground tremors. Take a look at Grover's Geology of the Book of Mormon and see if you can find a corollary for any of those features and conditions that he describes. Those descriptions (including a volcano that could produce the events listed that erupted in the correct time period). Those are tight correlations. 

Matching a feature or two, but being too far away to fit the rest of them does not make a good correlation. Every proposed geographic correlation has points that can be argued. That is why there are so many of them. However, very, very few can survive very close examination. There is always at least one major problem that cannot be overcome. In the case of Malaysia, you cannot find a way to fit all of the 3 Nephi descriptions. Those events are described in remarkable detail and are sufficiently unusual as to require some very specific conditions to produce them. Then the text seems to insist that the Nephites had been able to experience all of them first hand. That rules out the distances required to come close in Malaysia.

I've had another read of Jerry Grover's paper. Looking at it with a new perspective in the light of this conversation I can only say wow. Impressive stuff.

I'm going to have to do more research on the dates of eruptions along the West Sunda Arc, even though I don't really know where to find data on such things. I've identified two active volcanoes within the range Grover requires: Barren Island Volcano and Narcondam Volcano in the Andaman Sea. 

“Being a stratovolcano, it had in the past and would be likely to have in the future massive eruptions that could seriously affect life in the Andaman Sea, the Andaman and Nicobar Islands and the neighbouring south-east Asian countries. Tsunamis generated by sub-marine landslides on the flanks of the volcano can compound the scale of devastation,” the scientists said. (source)

I'm trying to find more info on eruptions but only have dates going back to 10,000 BC with an eruption interval of 4500 years. If accurate that would put a possible eruption in the right time (source). But I wanted to get some perspective on relative distances between the Sorenson model and the geography of Southeast Asia. Its interesting to see the size of the Malay Peninsula compared to Mexico and relative distances between geological features etc. Here's the same map with Mexico adjusted for quincunx alignment.

Red = Active volcanoes
Orange = Active strike-slip Faults
White = Hurricanes and storm surges
Blue = Tsunamis

Edited July 25, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[Rajah Manchou]

On 7/24/2016 at 7:48 PM, Brant Gardner said:

Take a look at Grover's Geology of the Book of Mormon and see if you can find a corollary for any of those features and conditions that he describes. Those descriptions (including a volcano that could produce the events listed that erupted in the correct time period). Those are tight correlations.

This comprehensive study of ice cores published last year shows very little volcanic activity in the tropics between 1 AD and and 100 AD. There was a big one in 44 BC and another (Vesuvius?) in the Northern Hemisphere in the late 1st century, but nothing but a few flickers around 33 AD. It even looks like the first century AD was the most uneventful century for tropical volcanoes over the past 2500 years.

If there were no thick ash clouds in the atmosphere during the early 1st century than there should be another explanation for the destruction described in 3rd Nephi. If volcanoes are a strict requirement for those events, than it looks like every model has a problem. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Rajah Manchou