Question: Wars, Executions, and Violence in the name of

[TheSkepticChristian]

Many kings, presidents, and dictators that believed in God or Atheism killed millions (genocide). 

I just wonder, has there ever been an agnostic that killed millions (genocide)?

Or non-political violence started by agnostics (group)?     

Or simply unfair executions made by agnostics (group)? 

Edited March 4, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[The Nehor]

Modern agnosticism is new.

It may be worth looking for equivalents of agnosticism or religions without a strong moral component tied to their deities. Many pagan Faith's had abhorrent gods. In Greece there was a lot of discussion of ethics and morality along with a belief in immoral and capricious gods.

The only possible example I can think of in modern history would be Emperor Hirohito who led Japan during the Second World War. His religious beliefs seem untied to his sense of morality based on my understanding of his life.

[TheSkepticChristian]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Modern agnosticism is new.

but mass murderers, dictators, and terrorists still exists. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[pogi]

The deadliest act of terrorism in America pre-9/11 was carried out by a self-proclaimed agnostic, Timothy McVeigh.

There is no moral superiority in the absence of belief. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by pogi

[USU78]

43 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Many kings, presidents, and dictators that believed in God (or Atheism) killed millions (genocide). 

I just wonder, has there ever been an agnostic that killed millions (genocide)?

Or non-political wars started by agnostics?   

Or simply unfair executions made by agnostics? 

1975-79, Pol Pot, Cambodia, Communist/Socialist/Atheist:  ca. 2M, 25% of his own country's population

1917-22, Lenin/Stalin, Russia, Communist/Socialist/Atheist:  ca. 9M

1924-53, Stalin, Russia, Communist/Socialist/Atheist:  ca 20M

1936-45, Hitler, Germany, Socialist/Atheist-Pagan:  ca 20-25M

1949-75, Mao, China, Communist/Socialist/Atheist:  ca 40M

[volgadon]

58 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Many kings, presidents, and dictators that believed in God (or Atheism) killed millions (genocide). 

I just wonder, has there ever been an agnostic that killed millions (genocide)?

Or non-political wars caused by agnostics?   

Or simply unfair executions made by agnostics? 

Stalin inconsistently veered between belief in God, agnosticism, and atheism.

[TheSkepticChristian]

7 minutes ago, USU78 said:

1975-79, Pol Pot, Cambodia, Communist/Socialist/Atheist:  ca. 2M, 25% of his own country's population

1917-22, Lenin/Stalin, Russia, Communist/Socialist/Atheist:  ca. 9M

1924-53, Stalin, Russia, Communist/Socialist/Atheist:  ca 20M

1936-45, Hitler, Germany, Socialist/Atheist-Pagan:  ca 20-25M

1949-75, Mao, China, Communist/Socialist/Atheist:  ca 40M

We all know that, I am still waiting for someone to answer my questions. 

Hitler wasn't  an Atheist. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[gclayjr]

THe SkepiticChristian

 

Quote

Many kings, presidents, and dictators that believed in God (or Atheism) killed millions (genocide). 

I just wonder, has there ever been an agnostic that killed millions (genocide)?

Are you trying to  play games with words to make an illegitimate point? You put "Atheists" in parenthesis as if only a small after thought  component of genocidal leaders. The line between Agnostic and Ashiest is fine and leaders often don't identify which they are. and maybe the more important question is are there any clearly agnostic leaders in the world? I suspect that the number of killings by Religious leaders also exceeds those of Martian invader leaders also.

Now to the spirit of what you are implying. In the 20th century, more people were killed by Socialist leaders than all religious leaders from the beginning of time until the 20th century. Whether you are talking about Stalin, Mao, Hitler (who was NOT christian... religion not clear...), Pol Pot, North Korean Leaders, Castro etc. Certainly in the last 100 years the Only religious leaders to kill a significant portion of their polulation are Muslim.

 

Regards,

 

George Clay 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Many kings, presidents, and dictators that believed in God (or Atheism) killed millions (genocide). 

I just wonder, has there ever been an agnostic that killed millions (genocide)?

Or non-political wars started by agnostics?   

Or simply unfair executions made by agnostics? 

It has been my experience that leaders of counties who make war for reasons other than defensive, either don't believe or only give lip service, or as we are taught by Christ, "...they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me". For those who commit genocide they believe in no God, because nowhere can they find justification from God (well once, which my whole life reading of it is the closest think that made me question either the story in the Bible or God himself) anywhere for the last 4,000 years, but even then they did not believe in Prophets...those who have done so. Around 2/3's of the "SS" and death camps leaders in the Germany were Catholics in name only...even the Pope who would entertain Germans while Jews were outside in boxcars. But their were many Catholics who truly believed in God and his commandments that hid and sheltered Jews. There where many in that day, or any days that feared man more than God and did whatever they needed to survive. There is no sin in defensive wars, which are the only just wars...although God would rather have no wars of course. Let me put it this way...

The heavens weep, at the site

When God's children choose to finght.

Each cause different, but all the same

Thy think they fight, in God's name. 

Excecutions, there are many commands that would allow believers who are Governors or Presidents to rely on or point to as justifications. As to "agnostics", who knows what is in another's heart...so hard to say.

Hope this helps. 

[USU78]

Just now, TheSkepticChristian said:

We all know that, I am still waiting for someone to answer my question. 

Hitler wasn't  an Atheist. 

He certainly wasn't a Mormon.

 

2 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Moreover, this:

• Richard J. Evans; The Third Reich at War; Penguin Press; New York 2009, p. 547: wrote that Hitler believed that in the long run National Socialism and religion would not be able to co-exist, and stressed repeatedly that Nazism was a secular ideology, founded on modern science: "Science, he declared, would easily destroy the last remaining vestiges of superstition". Germany could not tolerate the intervention of foreign influences such as the Pope and "Priests, he said, were 'black bugs', 'abortions in black cassocks'".
• Sharkey, Word for Word/The Case Against the Nazis; How Hitler's Forces Planned To Destroy German Christianity, New York Times, 13 January 2002
• Alan Bullock; Hitler: A Study in Tyranny; HarperPerennial Edition 1991; p 219: "Once the war was over, [Hitler] promised himself, he would root out and destroy the influence of the Christian churches, but until then he would be circumspect."
• Michael Phayer; The Response of the German Catholic Church to National Socialism, published by Yad Vashem: "By the latter part of the decade of the Thirties, church officials were well aware that the ultimate aim of Hitler and other Nazis was the total elimination of Catholicism and of the Christian religion. Since the overwhelming majority of Germans were either Catholic or Protestant. this goal had to be a long-term rather than a short-term Nazi objective."
• Shirer, William L., Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany, p. p 240, Simon and Schuster, 1990: " ... under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists."
• Fischel, Jack R., Historical Dictionary of the Holocaust , p. 123, Scarecrow Press, 2010: "The objective was to either destroy Christianity and restore the German gods of antiquity, or to turn Jesus into an Aryan."
• Gill, Anton (1994). An Honourable Defeat; A History of the German Resistance to Hitler. Heinemann Mandarin. 1995 paperback ISBN 978-0-434-29276-9, pp. 14–15: "[the Nazis planned to] de-Christianise Germany after the final victory".
• Mosse, George Lachmann, Nazi culture: intellectual, cultural and social life in the Third Reich, p. 240, University of Wisconsin Press, 2003: "Had the Nazis won the war their ecclesiastical policies would have gone beyond those of the German Christians, to the utter destruction of both the Protestant and the Catholic Church.
• Dill, Marshall, Germany: a modern history , p. 365, University of Michigan Press, 1970: "It seems no exaggeration to insist that the greatest challenge the Nazis had to face was their effort to eradicate Christianity in Germany, or at least to subjugate it to their general world outlook."
• Wheaton, Eliot Barculo The Nazi revolution, 1933–1935: prelude to calamity:with a background survey of the Weimar era, p. 290, 363, Doubleday 1968: The Nazis sought "to eradicate Christianity in Germany root and branch."
• Bendersky, Joseph W., A concise history of Nazi Germany, p. 147, Rowman & Littlefield, 2007: "Consequently, it was Hitler's long range goal to eliminate the churches once he had consolidated control over his European empire."

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I am still waiting for someone to answer my questions. 

What, killing 168 people in a terrorist attack does not qualify as "unfair executions"?

Why are you putting such narrow boundaries on cold-blooded murder?  Do they have to kill "millions" for it to count?  1 million is not enough? 168 people is not enough?  

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Or non-political wars started by agnostics?   

Why, is political warfare somehow less atrocious?

Edited March 4, 2016 by pogi

[TheSkepticChristian]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

What, killing hundreds of people in a terrorist attack does not qualify as "unfair executions"?

I am asking about agnostics, not atheists. 

 

17 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

Are you trying to  play games with words to make an illegitimate point? You put "Atheists" in parenthesis as if only a small after thought  component of genocidal leaders.

My goodness, nothing to do with my questions. I am asking about AGNOTICS, not atheists. 

Yes, Stalin was an Atheists. 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I am asking about agnostics, not atheists. 

 

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

The deadliest act of terrorism in America pre-9/11 was carried out by a self-proclaimed agnostic, Timothy McVeigh.

There is no moral superiority in the absence of belief. 

 

[USU78]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

 

Bravo

[TheSkepticChristian]

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

The deadliest act of terrorism in America pre-9/11 was carried out by a self-proclaimed agnostic, Timothy McVeigh.

There is no moral superiority in the absence of belief. 

Good job in partially answering my question. However, if you look at history, groups of people committed atrocities in the name of their religion, or in the name of Atheistic Socialism. So what group of agnostics committed executions? 

In the OP I said agnosticS, plural, when I said " non-political wars" or "executions" . Just focusing in one person is unfair because he is probably mentally ill. Not only that, Timothy's motives were political. 

However, it is a little different when you talk about a ruler or leader (king, president, dictator). A leader is followed by a group of people.  

Edited March 4, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[gclayjr]

SkepticChristian,

 

You still haven't dealt with the deceptive point that there are virtually no world leaders who are identified as agnostic I looked in Wikipedia for Identified Agnostic leaders

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_agnostics

 

I found 3, Former Leader of Spain, Former Leader of Australia, former leader of Norway. (Also a former leader of the American Nazi party).

Again. Few actually identify themselves as Agnostic as opposed to Atheist. Again Challenging people to identify identify murdering Agnostic leaders is not much more than challenging people to find murdering Martian Aliens.

 

Regards,

George Clay. 

[TheSkepticChristian]

2 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

You still haven't dealt with the deceptive point that there are virtually no world leaders who are identified as agnostic

 I asked three questions. I will be happy if you answer at least one. 

Bill Gates (leader) is agnostic. 

[gclayjr]

TheSkepticChristian,

 

How many citizens have been murdered by computer moguls. You are making a silly straw man argument. The world leaders who are responsible for murdering millions of thier citizens were leaders of countries and armies. To say that the head of the women's knitting club hasn't murdered many citizens is no surprise to anybody. Not only would she probably have no desire to eliminate her fellow citizens, she wouldn't have the power.

Now try and give a non snarky answer and identify some great agnostic leaders of great countries and armies, who would actually have the power to murder millions of their fellow citizens.

 

Regards

 

George Clay

[volgadon]

A

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Good job in partially answering my question. However, if you look at history, groups of people committed atrocities in the name of their religion, or in the name of Atheistic Socialism. So what group of agnostics committed executions? 

In the OP I said agnosticS, plural, when I said " non-political wars" or "executions" . Just focusing in one person is unfair because he is probably mentally ill. Not only that, Timothy's motives were political. 

However, it is a little different when you talk about a ruler or leader (king, president, dictator). A leader is followed by a group of people.  

A political leaders motives would not be political?

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

We all know that, I am still waiting for someone to answer my questions. 

Hitler wasn't  an Atheist. 

Hitler was nominally Christian since he was a child but showed no real devotion to it. He used a few bits of Christianity to rally public support but this was utilitarian. His regime tried to bring about a resurgence of paganism in worship or at least rallying around the symbol of the Norse gods but he does not appear to have venerated Odin or Thor. In fact Hitler was probably an undeclared agnostic.

[thesometimesaint]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

The deadliest act of terrorism in America pre-9/11 was carried out by a self-proclaimed agnostic, Timothy McVeigh.

There is no moral superiority in the absence of belief. 

 

Timothy McVeigh was a lapsed Catholic but remained Christian.

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/an-accurate-look-at-timothy-mcveighs-beliefs-cms-15532

[thesometimesaint]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hitler was nominally Christian since he was a child but showed no real devotion to it. He used a few bits of Christianity to rally public support but this was utilitarian. His regime tried to bring about a resurgence of paganism in worship or at least rallying around the symbol of the Norse gods but he does not appear to have venerated Odin or Thor. In fact Hitler was probably an undeclared agnostic.

No doubt he used Christianity for his own purposes. His personal beliefs are harder to substantiate.

[flameburns623]

Buddhism tends to be an agnostic faith although some variants of it approach theism or polytheism.

I'm not certain there is much of a record of religious wars among Buddhists, or wars by Buddhists upon non- Buddhists for religious reasons.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

Buddhism tends to be an agnostic faith although some variants of it approach theism or polytheism.

I'm not certain there is much of a record of religious wars among Buddhists, or wars by Buddhists upon non- Buddhists for religious reasons.

In Sri Lanka Buddhist terrorists are targeting Muslims.

In the seventies in Thailand many Buddhist monastic groups announced that killing communists did not violate Buddhism. The Thai government now has military units made up of Buddhist monks, some of which operate as vigilantes.

I could go on, here is an incomplete summary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

There is concern that Buddhist terrorism could become second only to Islamic terrorism and becomes a large-scale problem (though probably it will happen primarily in Asia so most Americans won't notice).

[pogi]

8 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Timothy McVeigh was a lapsed Catholic but remained Christian.

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/an-accurate-look-at-timothy-mcveighs-beliefs-cms-15532

Not according to him.

He identified himself as an "agnostic" the day before the bombing.  I don't have any reason to disbelieve him.  The fact that McVeigh was influence by "The Turner Diaries" does not make him a Christian.  I take him at his word as he had no reason to lie.