Question for Pascal's Wager followers

[TheSkepticChristian]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I do not believe people are nicer now then they were in the past. We have a different social standards which means we probably prefer our niceness to that of the past but that proves nothing except that we happen to like our generation.

We are nicer and more tolerant. Violence is decreasing. Racism is decreasing. Sexism is decreasing.  Now gay marriage is legal in many countries. The world is getting better.

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What is the "killing rate"? It is true that war deaths have dropped since the 1940s (probably the highest point in history) but is that because we get along better

In the USA the civil war was worst than WW2. You don't compare by the number of deaths, you have to account population growth, you go by %.

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 Violent crime has dropped a lot in western society as well but is that a moral improvement or that it is much easier to get caught? The United States currently has the highest per capita imprisonment rate in the world and possibly in all of recorded history. That speaks to either a culture of criminality (not supported) or fear and paranoia of others (bingo!) that does not speak of moral improvement.

True, at least violent crime is decreasing. I am not saying we are perfect, but we are making progress.

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, the western world is at peace and we have security. It has been a long time since a serious threat. 9/11 was a drop in a bucket compared to violence of the past and we went to pieces. We can get hate groups together over immigrant possibly taking our jobs. Imagine how much we would hate if they threatened our lives. We are in a sappy indulgent period. Historically these lead to decadence (already well underway) and a collapse into desperation. The Victorian ideal of stately civilized progress was cute at the time but history does not support it.

Today the KKK is very weak, there are no concentration camps, millions are not being executed in a single day. Like it or not, the world is getting better.

Edited March 2, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

We are nicer and more tolerant. Violence is decreasing. Racism is decreasing. Sexism is decreasing.  Now gay marriage is legal in many countries. The world is getting better.

Racism is decreasing in the United States among some demographics. Decreasing worldwide? I doubt it. I spent too much time in England and it is worse in Eastern Europe. And the way Japanese treat Koreans? Russians treating their minorities? Wow. US tend to see it as a big problem mostly because (to our credit) we can actually talk about the problem here.

Sexism is failing but we are seeing both genders suffering identity crises. I am not sure what the result will be.

I think gay marriage will end poorly.

3 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

In the USA the civil war was worst than WW2. You don't compare by the number of deaths, you have to account population growth, you go by %.

I was not just talking about the United States. Count the Russian, Chinese, and German dead and tops the US Civil War casualty rate by a huge margin. The United States is an important but also small part of the world. We also showed up to the war late and within six months of entering we were winning on every front. Of  course our casualties were light.

5 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

True, at least violent crime is decreasing. I am not saying we are perfect, but we are making progress.

Again, is it a moral improvement or that it is more dangerous to be violent now?

7 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Today the KKK is very weak, there are no concentration camps, millions are not being executed in a single day. Like it or not, the world is getting better.

Fascism is making a comeback in countries in Europe. We are saber-rattling with the Russians again. China is one strong leader from civil war. The stories coming out of North Korean prison camps are as sickening as those that came out of Nazi camps. 

[TheSkepticChristian]

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Racism is decreasing in the United States among some demographics. Decreasing worldwide? I doubt it.

In the industrialize countries it is. It is decreasing, but I didn't say it didn't exists.

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think gay marriage will end poorly.

how can you make a conclusion without evidence?

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Again, is it a moral improvement or that it is more dangerous to be violent now?

Fascism is making a comeback in countries in Europe. We are saber-rattling with the Russians again. China is one strong leader from civil war. The stories coming out of North Korean prison camps are as sickening as those that came out of Nazi camps. 

Yes the world is more dangerous, but it is also more peaceful. We no longer wipe out entire civilizations like in the Old Testament.
Don't tell me there is no difference. Today, there are less dictators than any time in history. You no longer hear about millions of people rapidly getting killed.

Edited March 2, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[TheSkepticChristian]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

. The stories coming out of North Korean prison camps are as sickening as those that came out of Nazi camps. 

I don't think it is compared to the six millions jews that were killed in concentration camps. 

What about human sacrifices? In the past human sacrifices were common, not anymore. 

Again, we no longer hear that millions of people are rapidly getting killed by the military. 

[Calm]

Slavery is increasing.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/02/19/modern-day-slavery-on-the-rise/

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

In the industrialize countries it is. Where are the concentration camps? It is decreasing, but I didn't say it didn't exists.

how can you make a conclusion without evidence?

Yes the world is more dangerous, but it is also more peaceful. We no longer wipe out entire civilizations like in the Old Testament.
Don't tell me there is no difference. Today, there are less dictators than any time in history.

The concentration camps are in North Korea. Your fixation on camps is odd though. By that standard we were doing better in the 1920s then we were in the 1940s. Not really a smooth progression.

I am not convinced racism is dropping in all industrialized countries. For a recent example see the recent Syrian refugee crisis.

I make the conclusion based on revelation. I hope I am wrong. I really do.

The Old Testament, particularly the stories of Judah and Israel, exagerrated the scale of just about everything.

We do not know the number of dictators throughout history so that is a bit of a stretch. The time we had the most (either outright dictators or de facto dictators) was at the height of the Cold War where the US considered democracy unimportant compared to making sure the Commies were unable to move in. The Soviets did the same thing. I would argue we would do the same thing today if we thought it politically expedient. Again, not seeing a moral improvement. Just a practical change.

[TheSkepticChristian]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Slavery is increasing.

In the long-term? more slavery than 200 years ago? or even 50 years ago?

Please don't cherry pick, we are looking at long-terms. Nice blog bytheway. 

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The concentration camps are in North Korea. Your fixation on camps is odd though. By that standard we were doing better in the 1920s then we were in the 1940s. Not really a smooth progression.

I am not convinced racism is dropping in all industrialized countries. For a recent example see the recent Syrian refugee crisis.

You can point to some examples, I can point to 100 times more. Look in the long term, not the short term. 

 

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The concentration camps are in North Korea. Your fixation on camps is odd though.

Again, how does concentration camps in North Korea compare to 6 million jews killed in the camps? 

21 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

What about human sacrifices? In the past human sacrifices were common, not anymore. 

Again, we no longer hear that millions of people are rapidly getting killed by the military. 

 

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

In the long-term? more slavery than 200 years ago? or even 50 years ago?

Please don't cherry pick, we are looking at long-terms. Nice blog bytheway. 

You can point to some examples, I can point to 100 times more. Look in the long term, not the short term. 

 

Again, how does concentration camps in North Korea compare to 6 million jews killed in the camps? 

 

Yes, more slavery. It is not the chattel slavery most Americans think of when we discuss slavery.

By your logic of morality steadily improving we should see more camps in the 1800s and even more in the 1700s. So where are they? It has to beat 6 million Jews remember.

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

In the long-term? more slavery than 200 years ago? or even 50 years ago?

Please don't cherry pick, we are looking at long-terms. Nice blog bytheway. 

As Nehor said, yes, in the long term.  You need to get educated about human trafficking if you think it is better than it was in the past.  Nowadays in many cases there is little value in the slave her/himself (they can be easily replaced in the same way the original slave was taken) so killing occurs for little reason.  In the past in general once purchased, slaves were valued property and even in some cultures considered semifamily members and could rise to positions of power and there was motivation to keep them alive (as opposed to how the Atlantic slave trading treated them so there were extremes of abuse then as well as now, just not as widespread).  Legal slavery is way down, but whether it is legal or not doesn't really matter to the slave, does it?  And illegal slavery/human trafficking is epidemic.

Perhaps start your reading here:

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/glotip/GLOTIP_2014_full_report.pdf

Quote

 

As a result, the number of convictions globally has remained extremely low. Between 2010 and 2012, some 40 per cent of countries reported less than 10 convictions per year. Some 15 per cent of the 128 countries covered in this report did not record a single conviction. The pre- vious Global Report similarly found that 16 per cent of countries recorded no convictions between 2007 and 2010.

At the same time, we have continued to see an increase in the number of detected child victims, particularly girls under 18.

Most detected trafficking victims are subjected to sexual exploitation, but we are seeing increased numbers trafficked for forced labour.

Between 2010 and 2012, victims holding citizenship from 152 different countries were found in 124 countries. It should be kept in mind that official data reported to UNODC by national authorities represent only what has been detected. It is clear that the reported numbers are only the tip of the iceberg. 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Calm

[volgadon]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

The truth is that we don't know, we can only speculate. However, it is true that people today are nicer than they were 60 years ago, and even nicer than they were 200 years ago, and ever more nicer than they were 500 years ago, and even more more nicer than they were 2,000 years ago.

So we can expect that people 200 years from now will be nicer than us. Contrary to religious expectations, the world is getting better. The killing rate is lower than ever.

Nicer? Entirely subjective understanding that varies even within the same country, let alone others.

[TheSkepticChristian]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

As Nehor said, yes, in the long term.  You need to get educated about human trafficking if you think it is better than it was in the past.

Of course there is human trafficking today. Of course there are probably more slaves today because the population is bigger. However, in the past slavery existed in most cultures and nations. Not only that, in the past slavery was seen as a good thing.

A common apologetic argument is that the Bible regulated slavery because slavery was very common.

I just don't see how slavery is worst today. What a double standard.

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, more slavery. It is not the chattel slavery most Americans think of when we discuss slavery.

but it was pretty bad in the past, why did the Bible have to regulate it instead of forbidding it?

I know you don't like the fact that the world is getting better, I do.
Here are some articles

"Isis and Syria dominate global headlines, but new data shows that violence remains in retreat overall "

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/11/news-isis-syria-headlines-violence-steven-pinker

Guess what, the violence in Mexico is decreasing too. Not only that, the more empiricists and agnostic cultures and nations are, the less violent they are. ISIS, Stalin, Hitler, Christian extremists were never empiricists and agnostic. .

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Calm]

Quote

However, in the past slavery existed in most cultures and nations.

As it does today.  Did you read the UN report or are you only interested in such about climate change?

Slavery was horrible in the past.  It is also horrible in today's world.  Why are you trying to make it appear better now than it  is?  What a double standard.

[volgadon]

Thing are never so good as cannot become nightmarish.

 

[Calm]

And so quickly.

Famines, tsunamis, earthquakes...life can change overnight.  Throw in corruption and moral evil.  People may never get a chance to recover.

[VideoGameJunkie]

11 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

How is religion better than Secular Transhumanism? Both promise an afterlife. Both promise a better future. Both promise heaven on Earth. 

What if it is possible (no evidence for that) to revive the dead? and if we ever get that super technology, wouldn't it be advance enough to solve all of our problems? So how is religion better? 

"Mammal brain frozen and thawed out perfectly for first time"

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2077140-mammal-brain-frozen-and-thawed-out-perfectly-for-first-time/

Once I die I'd rather stay in heaven then be brought back to earth as a mortal.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Of course there is human trafficking today. Of course there are probably more slaves today because the population is bigger. However, in the past slavery existed in most cultures and nations. Not only that, in the past slavery was seen as a good thing.

A common apologetic argument is that the Bible regulated slavery because slavery was very common.

I just don't see how slavery is worst today. What a double standard.

but it was pretty bad in the past, why did the Bible have to regulate it instead of forbidding it?

I know you don't like the fact that the world is getting better, I do.
Here are some articles

"Isis and Syria dominate global headlines, but new data shows that violence remains in retreat overall "

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/11/news-isis-syria-headlines-violence-steven-pinker

Guess what, the violence in Mexico is decreasing too. Not only that, the more empiricists and agnostic cultures and nations are, the less violent they are. ISIS, Stalin, Hitler, Christian extremists were never empiricists and agnostic. .

 

 

 

 

Do you really think I lie around wishing things were worse then they are? That would be kind of messed up. I wish I knew of one of these empiricist cultures you like so much. I have never run into one.

[VideoGameJunkie]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Do you really think I lie around wishing things were worse then they are? That would be kind of messed up. I wish I knew of one of these empiricist cultures you like so much. I have never run into one.

I know someone who wishes things were worse so the 2nd coming would happen quicker.

[volgadon]

8 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

Today the KKK is very weak, there are no concentration camps, millions are not being executed in a single day. Like it or not, the world is getting better.

As the Nehor has pointed out, there are still concentration camps. Death camps grew out of those, but not all concentration camps are death camps. The British and Germans had them in South Africa and Namibia before WWI. The USSR (more on that below) and Nazi Germany had them in the interwar years. If you live in Utah, your own state had concentration camps during WWII. You like fuzzy terms, lets you crisscross when you feel someone has countered your argument. Anyway, a closer parallel with the Korean camps are the Soviet forced labour projects and gulags. Essentially, hundreds if thousands of hardened criminals, dissidents, political, cultural, ethnic, and religious undesirables were worked to death un all weather milling lumber and building canals, to name but two kinds of camps. While nit nearly as bad as the Nazi labour camp at Janowka, prisoners were still brutalised, humiliated, and often killed, in mind-bogglingly horrific ways. North Korea is doing the same thing on a similar (relative) scale, and it still happens in Russian prisoners, on a more modest scale. Concentration camps still exist today. They are a real evil.

[volgadon]

7 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

What about human sacrifices? In the past human sacrifices were common, not anymore. 

Again, we no longer hear that millions of people are rapidly getting killed by the military. 

The practice of human sacrifice was usually eradicated by colonial powers. This complicates your tidy narrative of linear progress as the eradication of such evils were usually accompanied by various excesses against locals and their cultures.

You exaggerate how rapidly people were killed in the world wars. Look at how many people are being killed daily in Syria and Iraq, not to mention those dying of starvation. We are also witnessing the effective destruction of some of the oldest religious minority communities in the world.

There are definitely positive trends in the world, but also negative, worrying ones. I guess I don't see a march of progress as much as cycles. Sometimes things are going well, peace, progress, yada yada yada, then they rapidly turn tragic, bringing blood and destruction. The First World War was far more traumatic for my great grandfather, despite his losing his entire family (with the exception of his wife and children who were with him in the US). He was a proud citizen of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (one of the most multi-cultural entities ever in existence) and there was a real sense of unity, culture, and purpose that is hard to express today. When people say tradition, this was it. That war destroyed that world, plunging it into humiliation and civil wars between its former people.

[volgadon]

I should add that the years leading up to the war were considered years of progress. Peace, rationalism, and scientific advances, you name it. Then the dark nightmare was unleashed.

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 3/3/2016 at 10:13 PM, The Nehor said:

Do you really think I lie around wishing things were worse then they are? That would be kind of messed up. I wish I knew of one of these empiricist cultures you like so much. I have never run into one.

People with more scientific education tend to be less violent. Not all, but we can see the difference. 

On 3/3/2016 at 7:48 PM, Calm said:

As it does today.  Did you read the UN report or are you only interested in such about climate change?.

So you are saying that the percentage of slave owners has always been the same? Again,  there may be more slave owners today because there are more people, but I am interested to see a study once you take the population growth into account. 

 

 

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 3/3/2016 at 9:52 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

Once I die I'd rather stay in heaven then be brought back to earth as a mortal.

I am not asking the 100% convinced, I am asking the pascal wager followers. 

[volgadon]

52 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

People with more scientific education tend to be less violent. Not all, but we can see the difference. 

So you are saying that the percentage of slave owners has always been the same? Again,  there may be more slave owners today because there are more people, but I am interested to see a study once you take the population growth into account. 

 

 

Hell no. That is a baseless, pernicious assertion. Do read Christian Ingrao's Believe and Destroy. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0745660274/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr= Volunteers for the Einsatzgruppen tended to be educated, and Ingrao's study looks in depth at a group of highly educated, brilliant, young scholars who were eager and ruthless participants in the destruction of Europe's Jews. Their education was not just a peripheral fact, but an important driver in their willingness to kill. Interestingly enough, a major cause of that was the blurring of boundaries between academic inquiry and activism.

[TheSkepticChristian]

58 minutes ago, volgadon said:

Hell no. That is a baseless, pernicious assertion. Do read Christian Ingrao's Believe and Destroy. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0745660274/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=&sr= Volunteers for the Einsatzgruppen tended to be educated, and Ingrao's study looks in depth at a group of highly educated, brilliant, young scholars who were eager and ruthless participants in the destruction of Europe's Jews. Their education was not just a peripheral fact, but an important driver in their willingness to kill. Interestingly enough, a major cause of that was the blurring of boundaries between academic inquiry and activism.

Let's look at statistics, not specific examples. Of course there are evil scientists and engineers, but let's look at the stats. 

The more educated you are, the more income you get. 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

People with more scientific education tend to be less violent. Not all, but we can see the difference. 

Same mentality different technology.