ALarson Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, busybee said: I will do what I have always done. Support the brethren in their callings as prophets and apostles of God. And seek confirmation from the Spirit of the things that they teach. I don't believe that criticizing them does anything to further the work of salvation. If I don't agree with what they are saying (hasn't happened yet) I will take it to the Lord, not the Tabernacle of Public Opinion. So, you believe and "agree with" the Adam God Doctrine that was taught by Brigham Young? Or are you referring to agreeing with only current church leaders? (Probably a topic for another thread....) Edited February 3, 2016 by ALarson
consiglieri Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 25 minutes ago, Gray said: How do you determine that someone on this board has lost the Spirit? If they criticize the brethren, natch. The world is a circle without a beginning And nobody knows where it really ends.
consiglieri Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 24 minutes ago, busybee said: I will do what I have always done. Support the brethren in their callings as prophets and apostles of God. And seek confirmation from the Spirit of the things that they teach. I don't believe that criticizing them does anything to further the work of salvation. If I don't agree with what they are saying (hasn't happened yet) I will take it to the Lord, not the Tabernacle of Public Opinion. Straight question, BusyBee. Did you already know the brethren had said those things when you asked for the CFR? 1
Daniel2 Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 36 minutes ago, busybee said: I don't believe that criticizing them does anything to further the work of salvation. We have a very recent example of how it has. Assuming you believe that baptism is a necessary part of salvation, criticism of church leaders' wording of the policy about prohibiting baptism of children having at least one parent in a same-sex relationship rapidly resulted in further clarification that had definitely affected the work of alleged salvation for children like mine, and the children of many other divorced families in our situation, by immediately resuming the allowance of baptisms, which had been briefly denied in the painful week between the initial policy's addition in the handbook and it's update a week or so later (there are several families' first-hand accounts of their immediate impact here and here). Edited February 3, 2016 by Daniel2 2
rockpond Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 17 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said: Subsequent questioning disclosed that the missionary's companion had made unwanted sexual advances, and the missionary had resorted to physical self-defence. I haven't read through the whole thread to see if this has been addressed, I've only read your OP and felt the need to respond to indicate that your statement here is not supported by the text of Elder Packer's talk. We don't know what the companion did to "deserve" being floored. It wasn't stated. The conclusion that it was an "unwanted sexual advance" is an assumption on your part. 1
Gray Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, Daniel2 said: I would disagree with your first sentence. Assuming you believe that baptism is a necessary part of salvation, criticism of church leaders' wording of the policy about prohibiting baptism of children having at least one parent in a same-sex relationship rapidly resulted in further clarification that had definitely affected the work of alleged salvation for children like mine, and the children of many other divorced families in our situation, by immediately resuming the allowance of baptisms, which had been briefly denied in the painful week between the initial policy's addition in the handbook and it's update a week or so later (there are several families' first-hand accounts of their immediate impact here and here). Without criticism, groupthink runs rampant. Criticism is important to the health of any organization. 3
thesometimesaint Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 12 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Straight question, BusyBee. Did you already know the brethren had said those things when you asked for the CFR? It is entirely possible to disagree with someone without becoming disagreeable. 1
Daniel2 Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Gray said: Without criticism, groupthink runs rampant. Criticism is important to the health of any organization. I agree, Gray... Every organization I've ever worked for has encouraged critical thinking and challenging the status quo, including NOT making leaders immune from examination and criticism/critique. That's a mark of healthy self-reflection, improvement, and innovation. In fact, I'm trying to think of ANY other organization which would make the claim that it would be wrong for it's membership to criticize one's leaders, even if the criticism is wrong.... Can you imagine if our political leaders would make that claim....?? I'd be curious if devout Latter-day Saints who support Oak's statement would be comfortable applying that standard ("don't criticize your leaders, even if they're wrong") to ANY other organization in existence today....? If so, which ones? If not, why not? BusyBee...? Edited February 3, 2016 by Daniel2 2
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 34 minutes ago, ALarson said: So, you take back stating: "Thank goodness no one is relying on your evidence in a court of law."? Thank you! You can infer what ever you like. That's what you do isn't it?
ALarson Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 Just now, busybee said: You can infer what ever you like. That's what you do isn't it? Ha! I'm not the one doing the inferring on this thread! But, nice try... Now, where's that quote from Pres. Packer???
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 33 minutes ago, ALarson said: So, you believe and "agree with" the Adam God Doctrine that was taught by Brigham Young? Or are you referring to agreeing with only current church leaders? (Probably a topic for another thread....) I don't know enough about those statements to either agree or disagree. I'm certainly not going aorund criticizing Brigham Young. There is a difference between disagreeing with someone and criticizing that person. I don't always agree with my husband. I don't criticize him either. 1
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: Happy Jack Wagon and I have already done so. See above. Your request for a CFR indicates incredulity that the brethren actually said such things. Now that you know the brethren have in fact said these things, what do you make of it? No not incredulity/ Just fact checking when someone makes a statement.
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 29 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Straight question, BusyBee. Did you already know the brethren had said those things when you asked for the CFR? Straight answer consig - No I did not. 3
ALarson Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, busybee said: I don't know enough about those statements to either agree or disagree. Wow. Looks like you have some studying to do before you make statements like: "If I don't agree with what they are saying (hasn't happened yet)" Edited February 3, 2016 by ALarson
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 44 minutes ago, ALarson said: So, you take back stating: "Thank goodness no one is relying on your evidence in a court of law."? Thank you! You are inferring that I take back a statement I made when I have not.
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ALarson said: Wow. Looks like you have some studying to do before you make statements like: I don't know enough about those statements to either agree or disagree. So sorry that I'm not omniscient. I shall try to live up to your view of me being a perfect example. You must be so disappointed in me. Oh No!!! I have not made an in depth study of Brigham Young's Adam-God theory and as such cannot agree or disagree. I'm happy to align myself with the brethren. It has stood me well throughout my life. Edited February 3, 2016 by busybee
ALarson Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, busybee said: You are inferring that I take back a statement I made when I have not. LOL Well, you are inferring that I am inferring that you inferred....hilarious. Let's move on....do you have that quote? Or, are you still believing that it was just inferred by Pres. Packer? Edited February 3, 2016 by ALarson
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, ALarson said: LOL Well, you are inferring that I am inferring that you inferred....hilarious. Let's move on....do you have that quote? Or, are you still believing that it was just inferred by Pres. Packer? I have said as much. Logical deduction would lead one to that conclusion.
ALarson Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, busybee said: So sorry that I'm not omniscient. I was just pointing out that when you say things like you've never disagreed so far with what church leaders have said (and then state that you're not familiar with some of their teachings), you should make sure you've studied what they've actually stated and taught. Same with the quotes you asked for with your CFR. We're all still learning.
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 1 minute ago, ALarson said: I was just pointing out that when you say things like you've never disagreed so far with what church leaders have said (and then state that you're not familiar with some of their teachings), you should make sure you've studied what they've actually stated and taught. Same with the quotes you asked for with your CFR. We're all still learning. Yes. And apparently for some of us that's just not good enough. Am I supposed to know every quote that has ever been uttered by Church leaders?
ALarson Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, busybee said: Yes. And apparently for some of us that's just not good enough. Am I supposed to know every quote that has ever been uttered by Church leaders? Of course not. But, you might want to study up on some of the statements and teachings from past (and present) church leaders before you make such a blanket statement. (By the way, studying Brigham Young's teaching regarding Adam/God is quite fascinating and there are some great discussion on here about this topic!) Edited February 3, 2016 by ALarson
HappyJackWagon Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 I think it's pretty safe to say that there are things said by church leaders that we are all unaware of. The point though, issues like Adam/God are pretty significant and represent a major change in church teaching. If we all agree that teachings can change and sometimes prophets are wrong, then it is pretty hard for anyone to say "I never disagree" with the brethren. It's just not possible because the brethren disagree with the brethren. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 9 minutes ago, busybee said: I see you're from the UK? May I ask what part? I used to attend church in a ward in the midlands
ALarson Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: I think it's pretty safe to say that there are things said by church leaders that we are all unaware of. The point though, issues like Adam/God are pretty significant and represent a major change in church teaching. If we all agree that teachings can change and sometimes prophets are wrong, then it is pretty hard for anyone to say "I never disagree" with the brethren. It's just not possible because the brethren disagree with the brethren. Excellent point.
busybee Posted February 3, 2016 Posted February 3, 2016 5 minutes ago, ALarson said: Of course not. But, you might want to study up on some of the statements and teachings from past (and present) church leaders before you make such a blanket statement. (By the way, studying Brigham Young's teaching regarding Adam/God is quite fascinating and there are some great discussion on her about this topic!) I stand by what I have said. I have no reason to criticize what the church leaders have said. The statement was about me personally. I have never found cause to disagree with the brethren. If that is a 'blanket statement' that blanket covers only me and what I know.
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