canard78 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 On 1/8/2016 at 1:34 AM, Robert F. Smith said: You continue to make the same blatant error, completely unaware that Book of Mormon characters having a direct translation have long existed, and that an Egyptologist with a PhD thinks the translation correct. You are free to consult an Egyptologist of your choosing in order to verify the published claim: Benjamin Urrutia, “The Name Connection,” New Era, 13/6 (June 1983):39, citing Nancy C. Williams, After One Hundred Years (Independence, Missouri: Zion’s Printing and Publishing Co., 1951), plate between pages 102–103. These types of negative claims are nearly always generic and unsupported by any documentation. Hi Robert, I wanted to try to understand a bit more about this claimed translation. Urrutia says that the Egyptian hieroglyphs "Mor" and "mon" are a close match to the figure in Williams' book, here: He says, in his article, that these are the symbols for "Mor" and "mon." A few questions... 1) Egyptian's like Hebrew, I believe, in that no vowels are used (is that right). So these are more accurately the symbols for mr and mn. Right? I know that vowels don't make much difference, but I wanted to clarify this one first. 2) Can you show some extra references for these two characters? Are there examples of them being used together elsewhere? 3) Mn is (I think) a biliteral sign: . Is that right? Have you ever seen it being abbreviated to two dots as Urrutia implies when suggesting the Williams symbol could have derived from it. 4) I couldn't find Urrutia's "mr" symbol anywhere. There are lots of other symbols representing "mr": / / . Is Egyptian similar to Chinese in that it has lots homophones but different characters? Is the "mr" in demotic or heirartic?
Robert F. Smith Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, canard78 said: ............................................... Urrutia says that the Egyptian hieroglyphs "Mor" and "mon" are a close match to the figure in Williams' book, here: He says, in his article, that these are the symbols for "Mor" and "mon." A few questions... 1) Egyptian's like Hebrew, I believe, in that no vowels are used (is that right). So these are more accurately the symbols for mr and mn. Right? I know that vowels don't make much difference, but I wanted to clarify this one first. Like Ugaritic, Phoenician, Ammonite, Moabite, and Edomite, Biblical Hebrew is a dialect of Canaanite. Like Egyptian, they wrote their languages with consonants only. However, as Afro-Asiatic languages, they all follow certain patterns of vocalization which can be reconstructed (or are sometimes found transliterated in another language where vowels are represented). 2) Can you show some extra references for these two characters? Are there examples of them being used together elsewhere? I don't have the actual texts in front of me, but there are some possible convergences of those characters: Perhaps related to Egyptian and Demotic mr “bind, girth”* > Coptic Smr, Bmor-, SBmor=. Perhaps combined with something like Egyptian mn > Coptic SABmmon, Smon, Fman “verily, truly, indeed.” Joseph Smith (or W. W. Phelps according to B. H. Roberts) stated that this word was an Egyptian name meaning literally “more-good,” perhaps composed of English “more” prefixed to an Egyptian word such as mn “be firm, steadfast, enduring.”# Or prefixed by Egyptian m‛r “fortunate.”## This may also entail word-play on Egyptian mr “lake, pool, stream,” with Mr-mnˁ the name of a celestial lake from which the blessed drank,@ or the land of waters in Hebrew mēy-Mērôm (LXX Greek marrōn, Syriac mrôn) “Waters of Merom” (Joshua 11:5-7), similar to the “waters of Mormon” in Mosiah (18:8,16,30, 25:18), and Alma (5:3). * Erman & Grapow, Woerterbuch., II:105; E 166; cf. Nubian mur, mor, BiOr, 21:309. ** Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons, 4/13 (May 15, 1843), 194, stating that Mormon is an Egyptian name meaning literally “more-good”; J. M. Sjodahl, “Meaning of the Word ‘Mormon’,” Improvement Era, 30 (March 1927):433-444; cf. Truman Madsen, Defender of the Faith: The B. H. Roberts Story (1980), 291-292; according to the Tanners, W. F. Albright said that there is no Egyptian word mon that means “good,” Salt Lake City Messenger, April 1965, page 2. # R. Faulkner, Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian, 106; cf. 109 mnnw “fortress.” ## A. Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 3rd ed., Sign List M1 and V29. @ E. A. W. Budge, A Hieroglyphic Dictionary, 308b; cf. Egyptian mrit another such celestial lake, 307b. 3) Mn is (I think) a biliteral sign: . Is that right? Have you ever seen it being abbreviated to two dots as Urrutia implies when suggesting the Williams symbol could have derived from it. Not so much abbreviated as replaced by the two dots in contexts, such as the name of the God Min (Mn) in a Leiden Ostracon, some graffiti from Wadi Hammamat, and a stela in the Cairo Museum (Chicago Demotic Dictionary M [10.1], pp. 87-89, online at https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/CDD_M.pdf ). 4) I couldn't find Urrutia's "mr" symbol anywhere. There are lots of other symbols representing "mr": / / . Is Egyptian similar to Chinese in that it has lots homophones but different characters? Is the "mr" in demotic or heirartic? I don't have a hieratic dictionary at hand, but one can find a similar character in CDD M, pp. 130,148, on Leiden Ostracon 65,2, for example. The natural developmental evolution of hieratic/ demotic in the New World might naturally lead to forms not easily recognizable later within Egypt itself. Early demotic is the same as late hieratic (at the time of Lehi). Edited January 10, 2016 by Robert F. Smith
canard78 Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) On 10 January 2016 at 4:33 AM, Robert F. Smith said: I don't have the actual texts in front of me, but there are some possible convergences of those characters: Perhaps related to Egyptian and Demotic mr“bind, girth”* > Coptic Smr, Bmor-, SBmor=. Perhaps combined with something like Egyptian mn > Coptic SABmmon, Smon, Fman “verily, truly, indeed.” Joseph Smith (or W. W. Phelps according to B. H. Roberts) stated that this word was an Egyptian name meaning literally “more-good,” perhaps composed of English “more” prefixed to an Egyptian word such as mn “be firm, steadfast, enduring.”# Or prefixed by Egyptian m‛r “fortunate.”## This may also entail word-play on Egyptian mr “lake, pool, stream,” with Mr-mnˁ the name of a celestial lake from which the blessed drank,@ or the land of waters in Hebrew mēy-Mērôm (LXX Greek marrōn, Syriac mrôn) “Waters of Merom” (Joshua 11:5-7), similar to the “waters of Mormon” in Mosiah (18:8,16,30, 25:18), and Alma (5:3). * Erman & Grapow, Woerterbuch., II:105; E 166; cf. Nubian mur, mor, BiOr, 21:309. ** Joseph Smith, Times & Seasons, 4/13 (May 15, 1843), 194, stating that Mormon is an Egyptian name meaning literally “more-good”; J. M. Sjodahl, “Meaning of the Word ‘Mormon’,” Improvement Era, 30 (March 1927):433-444; cf. Truman Madsen, Defender of the Faith: The B. H. Roberts Story (1980), 291-292; according to the Tanners, W. F. Albright said that there is no Egyptian word mon that means “good,” Salt Lake City Messenger, April 1965, page 2. # R. Faulkner, Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian, 106; cf. 109 mnnw “fortress.” ## A. Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 3rd ed., Sign List M1 and V29. @ E. A. W. Budge, A Hieroglyphic Dictionary, 308b; cf. Egyptian mrit another such celestial lake, 307b There isn't anything particularly conclusive here. Lots of speculation about lots of different proposals. Let's have a look at what Joseph said about the meaning of the word "Mormon:" "...the word Mormon stands independent of the learning of this generation. ... The Bible in its widest sense, means good;... We say from the Saxon, good; the Dane, god; the Dutch, goed; the Latin, bonus; the Greek kalos; the Hebrew, tob; and the Egyptian, mon. Hence, with the addition of more, or the contraction mor, we have the word MORMON; which means, literally, more good."http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/8618 (italics and capitals in the original) So we have the character for Mormon: And the "literal" meaning of the word: more good. Which Urrutia proposes derives from these two characters: This seems to offer a straightforward series of questions to evaluate. Does "mon" (or mn) mean "good" in Egyptian? You've cited many examples of the Egyptian mn, but none of them were close to meaning good. Does the second character proposed by Urrutia also mean "good"? Does the first character mean "more"? Or are we to take it that somehow Mormon derives from the English "more" and the Egyptian "mn = good" . How would a mesoamerican prophet have a name that's 50% English and 50% Egyptian? This seems to be getting less supportive in terms of evidence of Joseph as a translator/prophet the more I spend time looking into it. Perhaps that's why it's never got much attention. Quote Not so much abbreviated as replaced by the two dots in contexts, such as the name of the God Min (Mn) in a Leiden Ostracon, some graffiti from Wadi Hammamat, and a stela in the Cairo Museum (Chicago Demotic Dictionary M [10.1], pp. 87-89, online at https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/CDD_M.pdf ). The images on pages 87-89 don't really support your argument. Yes, there are some symbols with two lines or dots incorporated into the symbol, but they don't exist alone. Two dots representing mn doesn't happen in any of the examples I've seen. So all we've got to go on is the idea that it's driven from the reformed element of the script and not the egyptian bit of it. Also, the two dots apparently don't represent "mn" but possibly just "n." Edited January 11, 2016 by canard78
Stargazer Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 On 1/4/2016 at 11:53 AM, mfbukowski said: Quote quoting Kenngo: All experience transcends language used to describe it. Dang dude. You nailed it! Can I steal that? [snip /] But that's exactly the phrase that communicates quite well I think. Thanks mucho. The opening verse in the Tao Te Ching is quite equivalent, I think. The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, canard78 said: There isn't anything particularly conclusive here. Lots of speculation about lots of different proposals. Let's have a look at what Joseph [or Phelps] said about the meaning of the word "Mormon:" "...the word Mormon stands independent of the learning of this generation. ... The Bible in its widest sense, means good;... We say from the Saxon, good; the Dane, god; the Dutch, goed; the Latin, bonus; the Greek kalos; the Hebrew, tob; and the Egyptian, mon. Hence, with the addition of more, or the contraction mor, we have the word MORMON; which means, literally, more good."http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/8618 (italics and capitals in the original) You merely quote my source without examining the likelihood that it was not Joseph, for which I provided sources. You have repeated what I said. So we have the character for Mormon: And the "literal" meaning of the word: more good. Which Urrutia proposes derives from these two characters: This seems to offer a straightforward series of questions to evaluate. Does "mon" (or mn) mean "good" in Egyptian? You've cited many examples of the Egyptian mn, but none of them were close to meaning good. You are free to believe that Egyptian mn > CopticSABmmon, Smon, Fman “verily, truly, indeed,” isn't close to "good," as you can also with mn “be firm, steadfast, enduring.” You ignored my citation of W. Albright stating that there is no Egyptian word mon meaning "good." Non-scholars never state both sides of the argument. Does the second character proposed by Urrutia also mean "good"? Does the first character mean "more"? Or are we to take it that somehow Mormon derives from the English "more" and the Egyptian "mn = good" . How would a mesoamerican prophet have a name that's 50% English and 50% Egyptian? A Mesoamerican who hails from ancient Israel/Judah might be described with a hybrid name, of course, and we have plenty of examples of hybrid names: Egyptian-Hebrew Puti’el “He-whom-‘El-has-given” (Ex 6:25, a hybrid name in Muchiki Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords 220); Egyptian-Greek Isidor(e), Isidoro, Isidora from ῎Ισις, Isis + δορή dor “Gift-of-Isis, Given-by-Isis”; hybrid Egypto-Greek ouroboros from Egyptian iʿrt, ʿrt “cobra, asp, uraeus” = οὐρο- + Greek βορός meaning “tail-devourer”; Book of Mormon Ammonihah may thus be a conflate or hybrid name combining the names of the Egyptian god 'Amon and the Jewish god Yahweh (YHH at Elephantine); note also that one Jewish king of the 7th century B.C. bore the Egyptian divine name 'Amon; Hebrew-Egyptian Iš-Ḥôr, ʼΚḥâra “Man-of-Horus”; Egyptian-Hebrew PЗ-NЗgbw "The Negeb"; Egyptian-Hebrew PЗ-ḪЗrw "The Hurrian". Moreover, when we translate place-names, we can render them wholly or partly in the new language, as with Egyptian Dw-wʻb "Holy Mountain" = Arabic Gebel Barkal, or Hebrew Har Qodesh; this was also true for Egyptian-Hebrew Puti’el (above), which is the same as pure Egyptian PЗ-di-pЗ-Rʻ, where Re is in place of El. Mormon might be just such a name, or it might not. Depends on how gullible you are in the absence of certainty. We have a definite case of Hebrew-English hybrids in the Book of Mormon in which the generic English gentilic plural termination -ites is added to Book of Mormon names: AMALEKITES / AMELICITES / AMALIKITES, AMLICITES / AMLIKITES, AMALICKIAHITES, AMMONITES, AMMONIHAHITES, AMULONITES, ISHMAELITES, JOSEPHITES, LAMANITES, LEMUELITES, NEPHITES, ZORAMITES. This seems to be getting less supportive in terms of evidence of Joseph as a translator/prophet the more I spend time looking into it. Perhaps that's why it's never got much attention. The images on pages 87-89 don't really support your argument. Yes, there are some symbols with two lines or dots incorporated into the symbol, but they don't exist alone. Two dots representing mn doesn't happen in any of the examples I've seen. So all we've got to go on is the idea that it's driven from the reformed element of the script and not the egyptian bit of it. Also, the two dots apparently don't represent "mn" but possibly just "n." Actually, look again and you will see that the two dots have an anthropomorphic figure above them (representing the god Min, but it is not pronounced, because it is merely a determinative sign). Urrutia is not out of line to understand it to indicate mn. Edited January 12, 2016 by Robert F. Smith
mfbukowski Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 18 hours ago, Stargazer said: The opening verse in the Tao Te Ching is quite equivalent, I think. The Tao that can be told is not the true Tao. Yes thanks!
Gervin Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 On 1/12/2016 at 10:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Does the second character proposed by Urrutia also mean "good"? Does the first character mean "more"? Or are we to take it that somehow Mormon derives from the English "more" and the Egyptian "mn = good" . How would a mesoamerican prophet have a name that's 50% English and 50% Egyptian? A Mesoamerican who hails from ancient Israel/Judah might be described with a hybrid name, of course, and we have plenty of examples of hybrid names: Egyptian-Hebrew Puti’el “He-whom-‘El-has-given” (Ex 6:25, a hybrid name in Muchiki Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords 220); Egyptian-Greek Isidor(e), Isidoro, Isidora from ῎Ισις, Isis + δορή dor “Gift-of-Isis, Given-by-Isis”; hybrid Egypto-Greek ouroboros from Egyptian iʿrt, ʿrt “cobra, asp, uraeus” = οὐρο- + Greek βορός meaning “tail-devourer”; Book of Mormon Ammonihah may thus be a conflate or hybrid name combining the names of the Egyptian god 'Amon and the Jewish god Yahweh (YHH at Elephantine); note also that one Jewish king of the 7th century B.C. bore the Egyptian divine name 'Amon; Hebrew-Egyptian Iš-Ḥôr, ʼΚḥâra “Man-of-Horus”; Egyptian-Hebrew PЗ-NЗgbw "The Negeb"; Egyptian-Hebrew PЗ-ḪЗrw "The Hurrian". Moreover, when we translate place-names, we can render them wholly or partly in the new language, as with Egyptian Dw-wʻb "Holy Mountain" = Arabic Gebel Barkal, or Hebrew Har Qodesh; this was also true for Egyptian-Hebrew Puti’el (above), which is the same as pure Egyptian PЗ-di-pЗ-Rʻ, where Re is in place of El. Mormon might be just such a name, or it might not. Depends on how gullible you are in the absence of certainty. We have a definite case of Hebrew-English hybrids in the Book of Mormon in which the generic English gentilic plural termination -ites is added to Book of Mormon names: AMALEKITES / AMELICITES / AMALIKITES, AMLICITES / AMLIKITES, AMALICKIAHITES, AMMONITES, AMMONIHAHITES, AMULONITES, ISHMAELITES, JOSEPHITES, LAMANITES, LEMUELITES, NEPHITES, ZORAMITES. I think the question, above, is a good one: How would a mesoamerican prophet have a name that's 50% English and 50% Egyptian? The response, above, is nonsensical.
canard78 Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 On 1/12/2016 at 3:23 AM, Robert F. Smith said: You are free to believe that Egyptian mn > CopticSABmmon, Smon, Fman “verily, truly, indeed,” isn't close to "good," as you can also with mn “be firm, steadfast, enduring.” You ignored my citation of W. Albright stating that there is no Egyptian word mon meaning "good." Non-scholars never state both sides of the argument Free to believe...? It's a quite simple matter of linguistics and etymology. "Verily, truly etc" does not mean "good." They don't even come from the same word or language root. To be "firm, steadfast and enduring" also doesn't mean "good." If there's no Egyptian word that means "good" then having an article from Joseph (or Phelps) claiming that Mon=Good in Egyptian just goes to show the author has no idea what they were talking about. "Non-scholars never state both sides of the argument" - you're right... I'm a non-scholar. To say they "never" state both sides of the argument would be easily refuted. To even say I never state both sides of the argument could be shown to be a false statement. Perhaps you're therefore saying that I am a scholar... who knows.
canard78 Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 On 1/12/2016 at 3:23 AM, Robert F. Smith said: A Mesoamerican who hails from ancient Israel/Judah might be described with a hybrid name, of course, and we have plenty of examples of hybrid names: Egyptian-Hebrew Puti’el “He-whom-‘El-has-given” (Ex 6:25, a hybrid name in Muchiki Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords 220); Egyptian-Greek Isidor(e), Isidoro, Isidora from ῎Ισις, Isis + δορή dor “Gift-of-Isis, Given-by-Isis”; hybrid Egypto-Greek ouroboros from Egyptian iʿrt, ʿrt “cobra, asp, uraeus” = οὐρο- + Greek βορός meaning “tail-devourer”; Book of Mormon Ammonihah may thus be a conflate or hybrid name combining the names of the Egyptian god 'Amon and the Jewish god Yahweh (YHH at Elephantine); note also that one Jewish king of the 7th century B.C. bore the Egyptian divine name 'Amon; Hebrew-Egyptian Iš-Ḥôr, ʼΚḥâra “Man-of-Horus”; Egyptian-Hebrew PЗ-NЗgbw "The Negeb"; Egyptian-Hebrew PЗ-ḪЗrw "The Hurrian". Moreover, when we translate place-names, we can render them wholly or partly in the new language, as with Egyptian Dw-wʻb "Holy Mountain" = Arabic Gebel Barkal, or Hebrew Har Qodesh; this was also true for Egyptian-Hebrew Puti’el (above), which is the same as pure Egyptian PЗ-di-pЗ-Rʻ, where Re is in place of El. Mormon might be just such a name, or it might not. Depends on how gullible you are in the absence of certainty. We have a definite case of Hebrew-English hybrids in the Book of Mormon in which the generic English gentilic plural termination -ites is added to Book of Mormon names: AMALEKITES / AMELICITES / AMALIKITES, AMLICITES / AMLIKITES, AMALICKIAHITES, AMMONITES, AMMONIHAHITES, AMULONITES, ISHMAELITES, JOSEPHITES, LAMANITES, LEMUELITES, NEPHITES, ZORAMITES It's credible that someone has a hybrid name based on two cultures that they originate from. I presume though that you're not arguing that one of the cultural influences on Mormon's actual name was English... are you? Presumably you mean that Joseph only translated 50% of the original name into English? So what are we left with? The Hebrew English hybrids you cite aren't really examples comparable to having an actual name that is 50% English. "-ite" is simply a suffix added to a name or nationality denoting the people's association with that family/country... like Israelite. The name "Israel" is an Anglicization of "yisra'el," while "-ite" is just an English suffix to denote association to the group. If Joseph/Phelps is to be believed then we're looking more for an example like someone being called "Heard-El" instead of "Ishmael." Or "Contended-El" instead of "Israel." For this to have any credibility you either need: 1) Mormon to have been called something other than Mormon... but the translation process rendered the first half as the English translation of the original name part. I.e. Mormon was actually called Y-mon (where Y represents whatever word was actually used to mean "good") but Joseph translated the first half of the name into English for some random reason. You also need "Mon" (or mn) to be a character that means Good (or close to it) and is represented by two dots. A reason why the name would be 50% translated would be helpful. 2) Or for Mormon's parents (or whomever named him) to have some been influenced by English (??!!!) and given him a 50% English and 50% Egyptian (or other) name and then to have represented that English part of name with the Egyptian character for MR (perhaps because they could only speak but not write English!!!) 3) Or... for your Egyptian character from Williams and the Joseph/Phelps claim that the name means "more good" to both be fanciful nonsense. The idea that you've somehow got the name, meaning, characters/symbols for the name Mormon all in one place and convincingly lined up would be indeed compelling and great evidence for Joseph's ability to translate... but you haven't. Haven't spent time actually looking into this, I don't think this has any credibility whatsoever. Perhaps that's why it's such an obscure footnote in Mormon evidences.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 13 hours ago, Gervin said: I think the question, above, is a good one: How would a mesoamerican prophet have a name that's 50% English and 50% Egyptian? The response, above, is nonsensical. If you do not know linguistics and do not understand name-formation, of course it seems like nonsense.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 11 hours ago, canard78 said: Free to believe...? It's a quite simple matter of linguistics and etymology. "Verily, truly etc" does not mean "good." They don't even come from the same word or language root. To be "firm, steadfast and enduring" also doesn't mean "good." If there's no Egyptian word that means "good" then having an article from Joseph (or Phelps) claiming that Mon=Good in Egyptian just goes to show the author has no idea what they were talking about. "Non-scholars never state both sides of the argument" - you're right... I'm a non-scholar. To say they "never" state both sides of the argument would be easily refuted. To even say I never state both sides of the argument could be shown to be a false statement. Perhaps you're therefore saying that I am a scholar... who knows. You again restate what I originally stated about the great W. F. Albright stating that there is no Egyptian word mon meaning "good." As usual, those only interested in a ping-pong game (instead of scholarship) ignore the fairminded presentation of a case. To a scholar, serious issues are not a matter of "tis so, tis not," but rather a great adventure of fellow researchers trying to throw light on questions. For you, canard, it seems more like a "game of thrones."
Robert F. Smith Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 11 hours ago, canard78 said: It's credible that someone has a hybrid name based on two cultures that they originate from. I presume though that you're not arguing that one of the cultural influences on Mormon's actual name was English... are you? Presumably you mean that Joseph only translated 50% of the original name into English? What the meaning of such a hybrid name might be, I do not know, and can only speculate via actual ancient Egyptian meanings for the available elements (I supplied you with several). I do not know whether Joseph actually made the statement attributed to him. So I am left with some characters made available by F. G. Williams which claim to be Mormon. That is at least a credible claim, and need not even be hybrid -- but it could be, and we have ample precedent. ........................................ The Hebrew English hybrids you cite aren't really examples comparable to having an actual name that is 50% English. "-ite" is simply a suffix added to a name or nationality denoting the people's association with that family/country... like Israelite. The name "Israel" is an Anglicization of "yisra'el," while "-ite" is just an English suffix to denote association to the group. You are, of course, quite wrong. Joseph as translator could conceivably have applied an English element "more" with Egyptian mon, whatever that is supposed to mean. He certainly substituted -ites for the usual Hebrew plurals. Of course, as you may know, both Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack have shown that Joseph Smith could not have done the actual translation of the Book of Mormon, since it is in Early Middle English (extinct before the time of Joseph). Thus, Joseph merely read the words provided on the seerstone. If Joseph/Phelps is to be believed then we're looking more for an example like someone being called "Heard-El" instead of "Ishmael." Or "Contended-El" instead of "Israel." Nice, and I like to see you exploring such possibilities. However, there is no reason why someone doing a divine/inspired translation could not attach an English prefix. I am not saying that such was done, but it is certainly possible. After all, in our KJV Bible text we have the same word rendered differently as "anointed" and "Christ" in parallel texts (Psalm 2:2, Acts 4:26), the first being an English translation of the meaning, the second as a name/title. Why do you ignore the obvious? For this to have any credibility you either need: 1) Mormon to have been called something other than Mormon... but the translation process rendered the first half as the English translation of the original name part. I.e. Mormon was actually called Y-mon (where Y represents whatever word was actually used to mean "good") but Joseph translated the first half of the name into English for some random reason. You also need "Mon" (or mn) to be a character that means Good (or close to it) and is represented by two dots. A reason why the name would be 50% translated would be helpful. 2) Or for Mormon's parents (or whomever named him) to have some been influenced by English (??!!!) and given him a 50% English and 50% Egyptian (or other) name and then to have represented that English part of name with the Egyptian character for MR (perhaps because they could only speak but not write English!!!) 3) Or... for your Egyptian character from Williams and the Joseph/Phelps claim that the name means "more good" to both be fanciful nonsense. The idea that you've somehow got the name, meaning, characters/symbols for the name Mormon all in one place and convincingly lined up would be indeed compelling and great evidence for Joseph's ability to translate... but you haven't. .......................................................... It really doesn't matter how you or I feel about it, since it is in fact possible. Did it happen? We don't know. Were hyrid (bilingual) names common? Yes, of course, and James K. Hoffmeier, Ancient Israel in Sinai: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Wilderness Tradition (Oxford Univ. Press, 2011), 224, lists some additional ones of the Semitic & Egyptian type: Abd-Osir “Servant of Osiris"; Ahimoth “Brother of Mut"; Asarel “Osiris is god"; Abd-Hor “Servant of Horus"; and possibly ʼăḥîraˁ “”Brother of Raˁ.” (citing M. Noth) 1
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