thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 There is a broad swath of actions we can choose to take that have zero repercussions from any monitoring agency, whether that agency is an employer, a school or a government. For example, BYU students have freedom to eat at any restaurant they choose. They don't have freedom to join any church they choose, if they are LDS. Yes they do have the freedom to join any church they want to. The difficulty is that they then have to pay nonmember tuition rates and get a ecclesiastical recommendation from their new found religious institution. Not easy to do. To choose to enroll in any school, especially a Church school, but not accept the conditions of that enrollment seems to me rather dishonest.
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 Yes they do. They just can't expect BYU to subsidize their education when they reject the tenants of the church that founded BYU. Even then the can come back later if another ecclesiastical authority endorses them.Freedom of choice does not equal freedom from consequences. That silly notion is ruining civilization. What you're really saying is they have freedom in the United States generally to make that choice, but not freedom within BYU to make that choice. The word freedom actually has a meaning, you know.
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 Yes they do have the freedom to join any church they want to. The difficulty is that they then have to pay nonmember tuition rates and get a ecclesiastical recommendation from their new found religious institution. Not easy to do. To choose to enroll in any school, especially a Church school, but not accept the conditions of that enrollment seems to me rather dishonest. LDS students don't have the option that you suggest. If they join another church, they will be kicked out of BYU. There is no option for paying non-member tuition or getting ecclesiastical endorsement from a new church. 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 Now that Europe is seeing a great influx of muslim migrants who in the past have not been known to believe in religious freedom when we consider the persecution of the christians in muslim countries, I can see a day as their population grows in europe that religious freedom will be in jeopardy. I have no idea how europe will handle the situation two generations down the road. We have already seen jewish establishments being attacked by muslim jihadists in france. I believe that this issue needs to be discussed more when it comes to religious freedom. If tolerance allows a people who seem to be intolerant among them will their be a clash of values or civilizations? And who will win: tolerance or intolerance? Also, any talk on religious freedom needs to concentrate on the plight of christians in the middle east and in other parts of the world, as christian women are raped, sold into slavery and christian men are beheaded. Such a talk cannot just be centered in the United States. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/15/middle-east-christians-islamic-persecution-iraq-war http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/26/magazine/is-this-the-end-of-christianity-in-the-middle-east.html?_r=0 These are the people who should be coming to europe so that they can have religious freedom. By far the biggest number of victims of religious violence aren't Christians but Muslims.SEE http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/06/most-victims-of-islamic-terrorism-are-muslims-and-why-america-is-to-blame-for-it/
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 LDS students don't have the option that you suggest. If they join another church, they will be kicked out of BYU. There is no option for paying non-member tuition or getting ecclesiastical endorsement from a new church. So they take advantage of the Church's BYU , professing to believe in its, mission(To make educated members of the Church). Then changing their minds after taking advantage of BYU , still wanting those advantages. That is self serving and dishonest. Talk about selling your soul for a mess of pottage,
Sleeper Cell Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 CFR that "gay" means embracing homosexual behavior, lifestyle, and culture.Can anyone redefine words to suit their preferences?Isn’t that sort of the modus operandi of the “gay rights” movement? For starters, the word “gay,” itself. To say nothing of the word “marriage.”
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 So they take advantage of the Church's BYU , professing to believe in its, mission(To make educated members of the Church). Then changing their minds after taking advantage of BYU , still wanting those advantages. That is self serving and dishonest. Talk about selling your soul for a mess of pottage, Not sure what you're talking about, "taking advantage" of BYU? They pay BYU for education. If they lose their faith or change their faith and are open about that, BYU will kick them out. People can and do change religions. We have a 80,000+ missionaries out there right now trying to help people change religions. Hopefully you don't look down on LDS converts in the same way you seem to be looking down on people who have a faith transition going the other way.
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 Isn’t that sort of the modus operandi of the “gay rights” movement? For starters, the word “gay,” itself. To say nothing of the word “marriage.” There are plenty of intentionally-celibate LDS gay people.
Sleeper Cell Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 What you're really saying is they have freedom in the United States generally to make that choice, but not freedom within BYU to make that choice. The word freedom actually has a meaning, you know. What about BYU’s freedom? Or the freedom of the rest of its students to choose to attend a school which will uphold their standards?
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Not sure what you're talking about, "taking advantage" of BYU? They pay BYU for education. If they lose their faith or change their faith and are open about that, BYU will kick them out. People can and do change religions. We have a 80,000+ missionaries out there right now trying to help people change religions. Hopefully you don't look down on LDS converts in the same way you seem to be looking down on people who have a faith transition going the other way. The Church heavily subsidizes LDS members. I'm a convert myself. Was in a California state university at the time. The state doesn't care what religion, if any, I have. They do care if I'm a citizen of another state and claim to be a California citizen. Ever pay out of state tuition at a public university? Edited September 17, 2015 by thesometimesaint
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) What about BYU’s freedom? Or the freedom of the rest of its students to choose to attend a school which will uphold their standards? BYU, as an institution, has a great deal of religious freedom. But its LDS students do not. The scales are very much tipped toward the institution. Edited September 17, 2015 by Gray
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) The Church heavily subsidizes LDS members. I'm a convert myself. Was in a California state university at the time. The state doesn't care what religion, if any, I have. They do care if I'm a citizen of another state and claim to be a California citizen. Ever pay out of state tuition at a public university? Your suggestion earlier (which you thought was current policy) would be a reasonable compromise. That is to say, LDS students who change religions should have the option to stay on at non-member tuition rates. But currently they don't have that option. Currently it would be like attending at University of Idaho and getting kicked out (not charged higher tuition) because you now live in Washington State (the border is only a ten minute drive from UI's campus). Edited September 17, 2015 by Gray 1
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 Your suggestion earlier (which you thought was current policy) would be a reasonable compromise. That is to say, LDS students who change religions should have the option to stay on at non-member tuition rates. But currently they don't have that option. Currently it would be like attending at University of Idaho and getting kicked out (not charged higher tuition) because you now live in Washington State (the border is only a ten minute drive from UI's campus). Paying a nonmember rate is just the start. That still misses the important consideration that an ecclesiastical recommendation is required for attendance. I don't know as an atheist would be interested at all in going to BYU. As I said earlier It is doubtful that a Catholic Bishop or Archbishop would give such a recommendation for BYU to a brand new Catholic church member. I doubt they would give such a recommendation to go to the fine Catholic universities if it was required. I don't know if it is or isn't. Even if you avoided prosecution you probably would get kicked out if you claimed to be Idaho resident for the sole purpose of getting instate tuition. Most universities that I know of have strict rules about lying and cheating.
rockpond Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 Isn’t that sort of the modus operandi of the “gay rights” movement? For starters, the word “gay,” itself. To say nothing of the word “marriage.”Ha. Good point on the word "gay". I have no idea how that word came to mean what it means today but I don't think it can be attributed to the "gay rights movement". As for marriage, no, they aren't trying to redefine it.
rockpond Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I think it was sub-optimal. Not sure if it was wrong or not.Okay. Was the "forced" Eich resignation a violation of religious freedom?
why me Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) By far the biggest number of victims of religious violence aren't Christians but Muslims.SEE http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/06/most-victims-of-islamic-terrorism-are-muslims-and-why-america-is-to-blame-for-it/Not true. It is true that muslims have a difficult time with eachother but it is the christians who have faced a systematic genocide in the middle east. They have been gutted and soon the ones that are left will either be killed or forced to leave their land. Regardless if one is a shia or a sunni, the christians are infidals. My point was that talks about religious freedom need to include the plight of the forgotten people: the lack of freedom for christians in the middle east. Edited September 17, 2015 by why me
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Paying a nonmember rate is just the start. That still misses the important consideration that an ecclesiastical recommendation is required for attendance. I don't know as an atheist would be interested at all in going to BYU. As I said earlier It is doubtful that a Catholic Bishop or Archbishop would give such a recommendation for BYU to a brand new Catholic church member. I doubt they would give such a recommendation to go to the fine Catholic universities if it was required. I don't know if it is or isn't. Even if you avoided prosecution you probably would get kicked out if you claimed to be Idaho resident for the sole purpose of getting instate tuition. Most universities that I know of have strict rules about lying and cheating. I doubt getting ecclesiastical endorsement would be a problem. Your statement about prosecution is a non-sequitur. There was nothing in my example about hiding residency. And indeed, BYU currently rewards people who hide their change in faith status by only kicking out the ones who are open about it. Edited September 17, 2015 by Gray
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I am correct.SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims Even in the Middle East by far the most victims of violence are Muslim. There is no systematic genocide of Christians in the Middle East apart from the overall killing of those that disagree with ISIS. Iran, Iraq, Syria have significant Christian populationsSEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_IranSEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_IraqSEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria Christians are not infidels in Islam. Christians, Jews, and Muslims are people of the book.SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book Your bigotry is showing. There are about 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world. To lay the horrible happenings in the Middle East on every Muslims is the very definition of bigotry.
thesometimesaint Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I doubt getting ecclesiastical endorsement would be a problem. Your statement about prosecution is a non-sequitur. There was nothing in my example about hiding residency. And indeed, BYU currently rewards people who hide their change in faith status by only kicking out the ones who are open about it. Do you really think that if I were to apostatize from Mormonism and my new found religion was Catholic that my local Catholic Bishop would have no problem signing a ecclesiastical recommend to attend BYU? I've known a lot of Catholics, I attended a Catholic HS in HS. and even knew one Catholic Bishop. To posit that they would be a party to such dishonesty is insulting. A person of honesty and integrity doesn't hide their beliefs for the sake of a mess of pottage. They get their mess of pottage elsewhere.
rockpond Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 Do you really think that if I were to apostatize from Mormonism and my new found religion was Catholic that my local Catholic Bishop would have no problem signing a ecclesiastical recommend to attend BYU? I've known a lot of Catholics, I attended a Catholic HS in HS. and even knew one Catholic Bishop. To posit that they would be a party to such dishonesty is insulting. A person of honesty and integrity doesn't hide their beliefs for the sake of a mess of pottage. They get their mess of pottage elsewhere. Unless things have changed from when I attended BYU, non-LDS students would get their ecclesiastical endorsements from their non-LDS church leaders. Maybe I have missed something but I'm not sure why your (hypothetical) Catholic Bishop wouldn't sign your endorsement. 3
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Do you really think that if I were to apostatize from Mormonism and my new found religion was Catholic that my local Catholic Bishop would have no problem signing a ecclesiastical recommend to attend BYU? I've known a lot of Catholics, I attended a Catholic HS in HS. and even knew one Catholic Bishop. To posit that they would be a party to such dishonesty is insulting. Forgive me, I'm not sure what you're getting at. What dishonesty are you talking about? Are you trying to say that Catholic leaders have a problem with people who convert to Catholicism and wouldn't sign an endorsement? A person of honesty and integrity doesn't hide their beliefs for the sake of a mess of pottage. They get their mess of pottage elsewhere. Those who are honest are rewarded by being expelled. It's like the school wants them to be dishonest. But that's a side issue. Edited September 17, 2015 by Gray
why me Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) I am correct.SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims Even in the Middle East by far the most victims of violence are Muslim. There is no systematic genocide of Christians in the Middle East apart from the overall killing of those that disagree with ISIS. Iran, Iraq, Syria have significant Christian populationsSEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_IranSEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_IraqSEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria Christians are not infidels in Islam. Christians, Jews, and Muslims are people of the book.SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book Your bigotry is showing. There are about 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world. To lay the horrible happenings in the Middle East on every Muslims is the very definition of bigotry.http://www.theguardi...cution-iraq-war Christianity is under siege in the very place where it was born. Hundreds of thousands of Christians have fled Iraq and Syria in the face of Islamic extremism and conflict. After a six-week trip across the Middle East in which I met church leaders and embattled congregations, it is clear to me that Christianity is hanging by a thread, and may not survive in some places. Some Christians said that after the brutality they had suffered and witnessed, they feared that relations with their Muslim neighbours could never be restored. http://www.nytimes.c...-east.html?_r=0 I think that the wiki needs to be updated. Please read the guardian and the times for more current information before you call me a bigot for defending the defenseless christians in the middle east. They are being exterminated. Also, it is these people that need our help. If these people are considered 'people of the book' some muslims have a strange way of showing it. However, it is Assad that is protecting the ones that make it to his areas of control and have freedom to practice their faith. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3219288/I-want-blue-eyed-Yazidi-teen-describes-IS-slave-market.html Sad that such christians are no longer free to practice their faith. Edited September 17, 2015 by why me
Scott Lloyd Posted September 18, 2015 Author Posted September 18, 2015 I daresay that your interpretation of the word gay has been heavily influenced by the Mormon environment in which you live and work.So you're telling me that the average non-Mormon, upon hearing the word "gay," thinks it denotes someone who is celibate?
Scott Lloyd Posted September 18, 2015 Author Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) So here's a primer on religious liberty. Complete this sentence: "Religious liberty to me means that I am free to ...." A) "... express and exercise my deeply held religious beliefs, values and principles in public or in private, and join with like-minded believers in doing so, without fear of interference from the government or anyone else." B) "... invade any religious group and demand to be included in its association and fellowship, whether or not I share its beliefs and values in any meaningful way, and whether or not I stridently criticize that group in public." One of the above is an expression of reverence for the principle of religious liberty enshrined in our Bill of Rights. The other is an expression borne of an excessive and distorted sense of personal entitlement, and, in fact, is an infringement on religious liberty. I'll leave it to the reader to decide which is which. Edited September 18, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 1
rockpond Posted September 18, 2015 Posted September 18, 2015 So you're telling me that the average non-Mormon, upon hearing the word "gay," thinks it denotes someone who is celibate?I believe the average non-mormon (and likely the average non-Utah/Idaho mormon) considers the word gay to be describing an individual's sexual orientation NOT their behavior.
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