provoman Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Consider the temple recommend question- "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" I think the writing is on the proverbial wall. I think the church will discontinue its affiliation with BSA. That question isn't a viable measuring stick. It is too vague and can be construed too broadly. And if that question served as a basis for leaving dropping the Scouting program, then the Church would have abandoned the Scouting program when gay youth were permitted to join.
sethpayne Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) The BSA has voted to allow gay leaders while also permitting individual units to continue to prohibit them.The Church Newsroom has issued a statement saying that the governing councils will have to re-evaluate our involvement in the scouting program:http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-re-evaluating-scouting-program I wonder how much of a financial hit this will be for BSA. On the one hand, they will lose the Church. But on the other, they will regain some serious donors like Spielberg and other left-leaning folks with lots of money. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. And FWIW, I think it is about time for the LDS Church to drop BSA and develop their own program. The Eagle Scout isn't as prestigious or recognized as it used to be. Could be a great opportunity to develop a youth program that prepares young men and women for further education, military or civic service, you name it. Edited July 28, 2015 by sethpayne 1
Buckeye Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Drinking coffee is a wee bit different than male sodomy. I'm pretty sure both keep you out of the temple, which was your argument.
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 We'll see how savvy it is after the Church withdraws and BSA, from lack of support, withers away into nothing. The Baptists in our area have already withdrawn support. If the Catholics and Mormons join them there won't be a BSA like we know today. This is heartbreaking to me. We're very involved in Scouts, Venture Scouts and the Order of the Arrow in my family. Including my youngest daughter. Sadly- regardless of your opinions about gay scout leaders, a small minority forced this change through lawfare, on a larger organization. And the change will not result in a more inclusive BSA, but instead will isolate secular and religious youth programs within their own church structure, resulting in less diverse groups, and less work towards common values.
HappyJackWagon Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 The Baptists in our area have already withdrawn support. If the Catholics and Mormons join them there won't be a BSA like we know today. This is heartbreaking to me. We're very involved in Scouts, Venture Scouts and the Order of the Arrow in my family. Including my youngest daughter. Sadly- regardless of your opinions about gay scout leaders, a small minority forced this change through lawfare, on a larger organization. And the change will not result in a more inclusive BSA, but instead will isolate secular and religious youth programs within their own church structure, resulting in less diverse groups, and less work towards common values. This is a victory for religious freedom. Churches can choose not to participate because they don't like this decision but churches who would like to utilize gay leaders is also able to follow their religious convictions to include them. Arguing that this is a bad thing because it's only a "small minority" is pushing for the change is dismissive of every minority who has benefited from nondiscrimination laws, including the LDS church. 1
rockpond Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 More than likely the LDS church is leaving the BSA so you can stop with this "free to chose" non sense. They are free to choose, so it isn't nonsense. And I doubt that the church will leave the BSA over this.
rockpond Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 Consider the temple recommend question- "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" I think the writing is on the proverbial wall. I think the church will discontinue its affiliation with BSA. What are the "teachings or practices" that are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church?
DJBrown Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 That question isn't a viable measuring stick. It is too vague and can be construed too broadly. And if that question served as a basis for leaving dropping the Scouting program, then the Church would have abandoned the Scouting program when gay youth were permitted to join. Read the church's statements on the topic. "Gay youth" refers to youth with same-gender attraction. The church never allowed openly gay youth (acting on that attraction) into its scout troops.
sethpayne Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) The Baptists in our area have already withdrawn support. If the Catholics and Mormons join them there won't be a BSA like we know today. This is heartbreaking to me. We're very involved in Scouts, Venture Scouts and the Order of the Arrow in my family. Including my youngest daughter. Sadly- regardless of your opinions about gay scout leaders, a small minority forced this change through lawfare, on a larger organization. And the change will not result in a more inclusive BSA, but instead will isolate secular and religious youth programs within their own church structure, resulting in less diverse groups, and less work towards common values. I just guessed at some numbers based on what is found here: http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs.aspx I don't think it is inconceivable that BSA could lose 1/2 its membership with the loss of LDS, Catholic, and other conservative Churches. But I agree with HJW. This is what liberty is all about. BSA has the liberty to set its own policies and Churches have the liberty to withdraw. Edited July 28, 2015 by sethpayne 1
HappyJackWagon Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 They are free to choose, so it isn't nonsense. And I doubt that the church will leave the BSA over this. Rockpond is right. More people have the right to choose than previously had that right. This is a win for religious institutions who now have the liberty to follow their teachings just like the churches who already enjoyed that right. 1
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I'm not saying any of this to badmouth the church, as I did the best I could as a Scout leader, and the LDS men and women I worked with were at least as dedicated as I was. But I recognize that we were at a disadvantage simply because of the way people are assigned in the church. Maybe a new program specific to LDS young men might work better. I don't know. That has always been an issue since the early 1990s when the Church decided not to go with the same advancement programs as the BSA for Webelo's because it didn't line up nicely with Primary to Priesthood Quorum transitions. I have noticed a tendency for the church units to think they can do it all, and not take advantage of district and council programs that could give them a nice boost. Usually it is the scheduling and Sunday activity thing, but our local council has always made room for us to avoid travel on Sunday, and leave activities on Saturday nights without penalty. I see the complaints about the YW programs not getting the resources the YM do, and that is often the case. However I have lived in wards where the opposite was true, and the YW were better outdoorspersons than the YM. That is a great deal up to the individual Ward and Stake leaders. The risk of gay leaders to youth is a canard (sorry Canard) because the youth protection program in the BSA is substantial and well run, even to the point of warning about grooming behaviors. Abuse in the Scouts is far lower than in the general population. Religious sponsors ought to have the right to determine what standards their leaders promote. For me this is the central issue. A lot of issues could be solved by going back to the 1965 handbook and instructing leaders to refer questions about intimacy to parents, clergy, or doctors. Having said this- I resent a small group of activists who just want to punish the Scouts for being bigots, pressuring the organization through lawfare and threatened lawfare, imposing their values on an organization they very few of them will ultimately support or join. 1
DJBrown Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 What are the "teachings or practices" that are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church? BSA now allows openly gay adults as leaders. That means adults who are sexually active in the homosexual orientation. The BSA just followed society at large in accepting homosexual behavior as morally acceptable. There is hardly any other "doctrine or practice" I can think of that is more contrary to the teachings of the church. 1
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 In about 2012 when we learned that the Boys Scouts had been covering up for child molesters for YEARS did the Church re-evaluate it's position then? No. Why now? If it was about protecting children we'd have seen some serious push back in 2012, instead we heard silence. Not true. They did not release private investigation files to the public for legal reasons. Even then the rate of abuse was much lower than in the general public. 2
DJBrown Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 I'm pretty sure both keep you out of the temple, which was your argument. That is not the point. The point is about moral standards that are considered acceptable in society, not worthiness for the temple. The church doesn't teach that drinking coffee is wrong in society. That standard is intended for the "weakest of saints." But the church certainly stands by the position that homosexuality is not morally acceptable, either in the church or in society. Completely different.
rockpond Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 BSA now allows openly gay adults as leaders. That means adults who are sexually active in the homosexual orientation. The BSA just followed society at large in accepting homosexual behavior as morally acceptable. There is hardly any other "doctrine or practice" I can think of that is more contrary to the teachings of the church. The BSA followed our 11th Article of Faith. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Not everyone believes the same as we do. Maybe we should stop allowing church members to join the military since they also allow openly gay members and leaders now. 2
Gray Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Consider the temple recommend question- "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" I think the writing is on the proverbial wall. I think the church will discontinue its affiliation with BSA. That's not really what that question is getting at.
DJBrown Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 The BSA followed our 11th Article of Faith. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Not everyone believes the same as we do. Maybe we should stop allowing church members to join the military since they also allow openly gay members and leaders now. It is different than members of the church joining the military. The church does not have close organizational ties to the military- sharing financial and leadership elements. There has been a very clear endorsement of the Boy Scouts of America by the church. That must change given recent dramatic changes in the moral teachings of the BSA.
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 It seems the Church and BSA have had this honeymoon type relationship for years , I recall Pres. Monson getting an award in GC even from the BSA but now it's this strained relationship. I wonder what hit the fan along the way. I don't wonder. It was when national leadership separated themselves from the vast majority of volunteers and started making decisions that were politically correct, and financially beneficial for national, while ignoring the desires and dedication of the volunteer scouter. If you go visit district events and listen to the candid fireside discussions you can see that the resentment on the part of the volunteer corps (the backbone of the program unlike big money donors and corporations). It was always a bit of a joke when the corporate execs serving on our council board and national boards would fly in the camp in a helecopter, uniform festooned with national awards, not a spot of dirt on it. They would spend 15 minutes looking at the new trading post their corporation purchased for the BSA, then hop back on the copter and return to downtown Atlanta, never having so much as seen a real Boy Scout up close. But HEY they donated millions of dollars and got the tax break for their shareholders. 2
DJBrown Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 That's not really what that question is getting at. Please expound. How can the church ask this question of its members who desire to go to the temple yet maintain a lower standard for itself with the BSA?
rockpond Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 By Common Consent posted a great response to the Mormon Newsroom press release: http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/07/28/memo-to-the-newsroom-if-the-real-leaders-are-away-best-to-keep-quiet-until-they-get-back/
KevinG Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 This is a victory for religious freedom. Churches can choose not to participate because they don't like this decision but churches who would like to utilize gay leaders is also able to follow their religious convictions to include them.Arguing that this is a bad thing because it's only a "small minority" is pushing for the change is dismissive of every minority who has benefited from nondiscrimination laws, including the LDS church. Religions are free to join groups as long as they don't offend anyone else? Funny definition of freedom. Gays were never banned from creating and sponsoring groups like the BSA, but they insisted an established group that didn't share their values incorporate their values at threat of lawsuit. 1
thesometimesaint Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Read the church's statements on the topic. "Gay youth" refers to youth with same-gender attraction. The church never allowed openly gay youth (acting on that attraction) into its scout troops. It takes a pretty dim view of openly heterosexual youth(acting on that attraction) into its scout troops
rockpond Posted July 28, 2015 Author Posted July 28, 2015 It is different than members of the church joining the military. The church does not have close organizational ties to the military- sharing financial and leadership elements. There has been a very clear endorsement of the Boy Scouts of America by the church. That must change given recent dramatic changes in the moral teachings of the BSA. Good point. I agree. But I stand by my 11th A of F statement.
Gray Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Please expound. How can the church ask this question of its members who desire to go to the temple yet maintain a lower standard for itself with the BSA? The question is really aimed at people who support polygamist groups. The church recently said that members in good standing can be gay rights activists. So obviously affiliating/supporting groups that are gay friendly is not a temple recommend issue.
Gray Posted July 28, 2015 Posted July 28, 2015 Religions are free to join groups as long as they don't offend anyone else? Funny definition of freedom. Gays were never banned from creating and sponsoring groups like the BSA, but they insisted an established group that didn't share their values incorporate their values at threat of lawsuit. No one forced the BSA to do anything. They are free to ban anyone they choose, but they've decided not to.
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