BCSpace Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 FDR's pre-war policies did not pull us out of the depression, they did, however, give the common people hope and restored their dignity. Not by any stretch of the imaginiation. FDR's own Treasury Secretary admitted that such spending didn't work and that the Depression would have ended much sooner without it. It was the Emperor's New Clothes back then just as it is now. The Pope has become the speaker representative for a more Christian economic system The one described in official LDS doctrine (and linked to in my siggy) is free market capitalism. No price or supply controls. Personal responsibility. Private property is the fundamental principle. No one is forced to contribute to the welfare of others. Etc. In fact, the United Order is not so much an economic system as it requires Free Market Capitalism in order to work. “They had all things common.” The phrase “they had all things common” ( Acts 4:32 ; see also Acts 2:44 ; 3 Nephi 26:19 ; 4 Nephi 1:3 ) is used to characterize those who lived the law of consecration in ancient times. Some have speculated that the term common suggests a type of communalism or “Christian Communism.” This interpretation is in error. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught the true nature of having all things common: “I preached on the stand about one hour on the 2nd chapter of Acts , designing to show the folly of common stock [holding property in common]. In Nauvoo every one is steward over his own [property].” ( History of the Church, 6:37–38.)Each stewardship is considered private property (see Reading L-4 ), and the residues and surpluses consecrated for the storehouse became the “common property of the whole church” ( D&C 82:18 ). It is referred to as the “common property” because the covenant members of the order had access to it, according to their just “wants” and “needs,” including the need to improve their stewardship (see D&C 82:17–18 ).The word equal is frequently used in the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants: “In . . . temporal things you shall be equal” ( D&C 70:14 ); “for if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things” ( D&C 78:6 ); “appoint unto this people their portions, every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs” ( D&C 51:3 ). The Lord gave His definition of the term equal: “And you are to be equal, or in other words, you are to have equal claims on the properties, for the benefit of managing the concerns of your stewardships, every man according to his wants and his needs, inasmuch as his wants are just” ( D&C 82:17 )......................“This procedure [of providing deeds] preserved in every man the right of private ownership and management of his property. Indeed, the fundamental principle of the system was the private ownership of property. Each man owned his portion, or inheritance, or stewardship, with an absolute title, which, at his option, he could alienate [transfer], keep and operate, or otherwise treat as his own. The Church did not own all of the property, and life under the united order was not, and never will be, a communal life, as the Prophet Joseph himself said......................President Lorenzo Snow emphasized the importance of individual agency in moving forward the work of consecration: “In things that pertain to celestial glory there can be no forced operations. We must do according as the Spirit of the Lord operates upon our understandings and feelings. We cannot be crowded into matters, however great might be the blessing attending such procedure. We cannot be forced into living a celestial law; we must do this ourselves, of our own free will. And whatever we do in regard to the principles of the United Order, we must do it because we desire to do it. Some of us are practising in the spirit of the United Order, doing more than the law of tithing requires.” (In Journal of Discourses, 19:346.).....................“Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness.http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-l-the-law-of-consecration-and-stewardship?lang=eng 2
Stone holm Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) Ayn Rand is not the early position of the Church, nor is capitalism. The early economic position of the Church was a type of theocratic socialism. The Order of Enoch can only be established via collaborative based economic policy. The Old Testament provides for a periodic economic reset during the year of Jubilee a need argued for in the documentary Surviving Progress. Edited August 3, 2015 by Stone holm
thesometimesaint Posted August 2, 2015 Posted August 2, 2015 Not by any stretch of the imaginiation. FDR's own Treasury Secretary admitted that such spending didn't work and that the Depression would have ended much sooner without it. It was the Emperor's New Clothes back then just as it is now. The one described in official LDS doctrine (and linked to in my siggy) is free market capitalism. No price or supply controls. Personal responsibility. Private property is the fundamental principle. No one is forced to contribute to the welfare of others. Etc. In fact, the United Order is not so much an economic system as it requires Free Market Capitalism in order to work. Utter nonsense. 1
ERayR Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 Agreed. Not in a million years did FDR save Capitalism. We are getting off topic, but suffice it to say that his policies have resulted in far more damage to our country than any good he accomplished. He certainly is not one of my favorite presidents and don't like the fact there is a giant monument to him in D.C. That always has left a sour taste in my mouth. Did not like his policies and did not like his actions in WWII. As my father once said: " he is either s d*** communist or a fellow traveler".
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 The one described in official LDS doctrine (and linked to in my siggy) is free market capitalism. No price or supply controls. Personal responsibility. Private property is the fundamental principle. No one is forced to contribute to the welfare of others. Etc. In fact, the United Order is not so much an economic system as it requires Free Market Capitalism in order to work. Prophet and Governor Brigham Young was a democratic socialist “Again, with regard to labour – don’t imagine unto your selves that you are going to get rich, at once, by it. As for the poor, there are none here, neither are there any who may be called rich, but all obtain the essential comforts of life" - Brigham Young "If those that have, do not sell to those that have not, we will just take it & distribute among the Poors" - Brigham Young “If you do not pursue a righteous course, we will separate you from the Church. Is that all? No. If necessary we will take your grain from your bin and distribute it among the poor and needy, and they shall be fed and supplied with work, and you shall receive what your grain is worth.” - Brigham Young 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) and saying that the law of consecration is not democratic socialism, is like saying that priesthood plural marriage is not polygamy. Edited August 3, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian 1
Stone holm Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 It is interesting that Christianity has become so dominated by people like Ayn Rand who despised Christian and Jewish doctrines of social justice as merely preserving the weak and therefore contrary to the law of the jungle which favoured the strong and aggressive. Greed becoming a virtue.
Stone holm Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 Greece. Actually nearly all of Europe is Democratic Socialist, Britain went that route after WWII when the people called in the chips on the Aristocracy after they had shed their blood and made the sacrifices to win the war.
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 Greece. CFR Nothing like Scandinavia and Canada.Look at the CIA datahttps://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2046.html
ERayR Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 CFR Nothing like Scandinavia and Canada.Look at the CIA datahttps://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2046.html CFR what?
TheSkepticChristian Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 CFR what? CFR that Greece is like Canada and Scandinavia.just because it is in Europe, doesn't mean it is.
Stone holm Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 I think he was asking for a CFR regarding Greece being Democratic Socialist. It had always been my understanding that Greece was a land of extreme polarity with very, very wealthy people and a lot of pensioners just getting by. But I really don't know that much about Greece. Have read several articles which suggest that the Greek Oligarchs failed to invest in processing plants so all of Greece's olive oil get shipped to Italy instead. The reaction in Greece was to the fact that the Oligarch's didn't put in their fair share and the bank's didn't take a haircut.
thesometimesaint Posted August 3, 2015 Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) Greece. Greece was never part of Scandinavia. Ps; Greece could solve the problem of the banksters.SEE http://www.prairie2.com/2015/07/the-weekly-greek-crisis.html Or like Iceland did by jailing them. Edited August 3, 2015 by thesometimesaint
TheSkepticChristian Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Greece was never part of Scandinavia. Ps; Greece could solve the problem of the banksters.SEE http://www.prairie2.com/2015/07/the-weekly-greek-crisis.html Or like Iceland did by jailing them. and please read https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/3dh5i6/greece_and_the_threat_of_socialism_in_america_via/?ref=search_posts
thesometimesaint Posted September 8, 2015 Posted September 8, 2015 and please read https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForPresident/comments/3dh5i6/greece_and_the_threat_of_socialism_in_america_via/?ref=search_posts For better or worse I don't live in a battle ground state. By the time the California Primaries get going there really won't be a choice left.
saemo Posted September 19, 2015 Posted September 19, 2015 Could one imagine an image of a smiling Pius VII receiving a "crucifix" on a small guillotine? Or a smiling Pius XII receiving a "crucifix" on a Swastika?In the Holy Father's upcoming trip to the USA, the White House is including as guests for his welcome, people who reflect a dissent against Catholic teaching. Obviously done so purposely, and I expect pictures will be taken of the Pope at an event with a pro-abortion nun and a transgendered person, and the so-called Traditionists, will slam the Pope for being pro-gay and pro-abortion.Which of course, only supports the intent of those who seek to embarrass the Holy Father in political situations.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 I was once given a book about by Scientology as a gift from a Scientologist. I accepted it graciously and even read some of it. Guess that makes me a Scientologist. Praise XENU!!!!!Yeh, well I once read the Urantia Book, which is probably where Dianetics got its start. So there !
Robert F. Smith Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 ............................................................................................................................................. The world has yet to see a communist state in operation. .......................................................................................................................................True enough, but that is because the oligarchs of the state capitalist countries (Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, etc.) would not permit it. They enjoy the special privileges and power which come with being the dictatorship of the proletariat. However, authentic communism has been practiced: By the Mormons (the United Order), by the Israeli Kibbutz, by Mondragon in Spain -- which is still going strong -- and by the early Christians.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 My understanding is the he is a Distributist which is in alignment with Catholic economic thought, as well as early Mormon thoughtDo you mean a redistributionist?
Robert F. Smith Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 FDR's pre-war policies did not pull us out of the depression, they did, however, give the common people hope and restored their dignity. Had there not have been an intervention similar to his America might well have gone communistic...historians refer to the 30's as the Red decade for a reason. Ultimately, it took the massive economic intervention of WWII to bring us out of the depression. That is the problem with the free market argument that the New Deal didn't bring us out of the depression WWII did scenario. It proves too much, the New Deal didn't go far enough with government intervention, but the war rectified that. I had a cousin who argued that the Vietnam War was a failure insofar as making the Pacific Rim safe for democracy, but a success for making it safe for Capitalism. ........................................................................So, are you saying that, when there is financial trouble, what this country needs is a good war to get it back on its feet?
saemo Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) FDR's pre-war policies did not pull us out of the depression, they did, however, give the common people hope and restored their dignity. Had there not have been an intervention similar to his America might well have gone communistic...historians refer to the 30's as the Red decade for a reason. Ultimately, it took the massive economic intervention of WWII to bring us out of the depression. That is the problem with the free market argument that the New Deal didn't bring us out of the depression WWII did scenario. It proves too much, the New Deal didn't go far enough with government intervention, but the war rectified that. I had a cousin who argued that the Vietnam War was a failure insofar as making the Pacific Rim safe for democracy, but a success for making it safe for Capitalism. Unfortunately, Americans equate capitalism with democracy, that is not the case. You can have a democracy and a semi socialist economy as Western Europe has established. What is not clear is whether you can maintain a capitalist free market economy and retain a democracy. It is being strongly suggested that when SCOTUS rendered the Citizens United decision we finally moved from a democratic (Republic) to an oligarchy. FDR, I believe with his reforms breathed another half century into the democratic capitalism experiment, but that experiment appears to have finally run its course with an over concentration of wealth, which is what is concerning the Pope and other populist activists. The Pope has become the speaker representative for a more Christian economic systemNot too long ago my mum was telling me about her early childhood, during the depression. Her dad had work because of the FDR programs. Then came WWII and rations. They didn't t drive a car because of fuel rations. Didn't do a lot of things, but in both the depression and WWII, had a place to live and enough food. What pumped the economy post WWII were GI incentives. Training, housing, jobs. But let's not forget Eisenhower's prophetic warning regarding the military industrial complex. It is what drives all wars now and benefits a few very greatly, at the cost of destruction for others. For the US, the cost is a multi trillion dollar national deficit.But the Pope's views and teachings are for the poor, not what benefits governments. War is not a means to economic stability for the poor, and never has been. Edited September 20, 2015 by saemo
saemo Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) True enough, but that is because the oligarchs of the state capitalist countries (Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, etc.) would not permit it. They enjoy the special privileges and power which come with being the dictatorship of the proletariat.However, authentic communism has been practiced: By the Mormons (the United Order), by the Israeli Kibbutz, by Mondragon in Spain -- which is still going strong -- and by the early Christians.Recalling from my sociology course in college....the iron rule of oligarchy is inevitable, in any organization, no matter how democratic it starts out. Edited September 20, 2015 by saemo
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