Hopewell Mound Fortifications

[Tom m]

Mound Fortifications

Hopewell/Nephite Indians built mound fortifications as a defense against invading Indian tribes. The Hopewell civilizations not only matches the Book of Mormon because of the timeline but because of earthen mounds around all their cities as stated in Alma 50:1.  

Alma 50:1
1 And now it came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war, or to defend his people against the Lamanites; for he caused that his armies should commence in the commencement of the twentieth year of the reign of the judges, that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities, throughout all the land which was possessed by the Nephites.

Alma 49:4
4 But behold, how great was their disappointment; for behold, the Nephites had dug up a ridge of earth round about them, which was so high that the Lamanites could not cast their stones and their arrows at them that they might take effect, neither could they come upon them save it was by their place of entrance.

 

(Concerning Hopewell Indian mounds)
“In one of the plates of Lapiteau's work, there is a representation of an attack on an Indian fort, which is evidently constructed upon one of the mounds: its form is circular, the enclosure of large pickets and heavy beams on the outside, extending to the ground on which the mound stands. Those inside defend themselves with stones, arrows, &c. while the assailants are either aiming their arrows at such as appear above the wall, or endeavoring to set fire to the fort”
(Brackenridge 1811 pg185)

 

(Concerning Hopewell Indian mounds)
“The care which is every where visible, about these ruins, to protect every part from a foe without; the high plain on which they are situated, which is generally forty feet above the country around it; ...they speak volumes in favour of the sagacity of their authors”
(Atwater 1833  pg130)

 

(Concerning Hopewell Indian mounds)
“Their authors were rude, and unacquainted with the use of letters, yet they raised monuments, calculated almost for endless duration, and speaking a language as expressive as the most studied inscriptions of latter times upon brass and marble. These monuments, their stated anniversaries and traditionary accounts, were their means of perpetuating the recollection of important transactions. Their authors are gone; their monuments remain; but the events, which they were intended to keep in the memory, are lost in oblivion. “

Alma 50:2-4

2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities.
3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high.
4 And he caused towers to be erected that overlooked those works of pickets, and he caused places of security to be built upon those towers, that the stones and the arrows of the Lamanites could not hurt them.

Replication of Hopewell Mound fortification. Has Earthen mound with picket fence and tower as described in the Book of Mormon

 

(Concerning Hopewell mounds)

“From one of these to another is about two arrowshot; so that the archers in the towers would be able to defend the whole distance of the wall between them; while those in front could ward off the assailants at the passage”
(Thaddeus Mason Harris, The Journal of a tour into the Territory Northwest of the Alleghany Mountain; 1805)

 

Alma 48:8
8 Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land.

 

“could bricks be of any use to the ancient inhabitants, without the trowel and the masonic art, not to mention the building of stone walls.”
(Haywood 1823 pg 189)

[Calm]

FYI, you have driven your own threads to the second page.

Are you wanting people to read and engage your posts or just attempting to set a record for most threads in shortest time?

[Nevo]

Good grief. I didn't really agree with the "Limited" designation before but Tom m has convinced me of its utility.

[Tom m]

Good grief. I didn't really agree with the "Limited" designation before but Tom m has convinced me of its utility.

study and learn

[Calm]

Good grief. I didn't really agree with the "Limited" designation before but Tom m has convinced me of its utility.

Well, at least he won't be able to claim it was unexpected if it happens.

[Nevo]

study and learn

 

I looked at your evidence. Dan Vogel already plowed this ground in Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon. If you want to show that the Book of Mormon is ancient, emphasizing continuity with early nineteenth-century beliefs about the mound builders probably isn't the way to go.

[Nevo]

Well, at least he won't be able to claim it was unexpected if it happens.

 

May it happen soon. I don't think I've seen this level of board vandalism before in the 10+ years I've been here.

[Calm]

Not for starting threads, have seen it with spammers posting the same advertisement in a dozen threads or so.

The 25 posts before starting a thread has good cause.

Edited July 3, 2015 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

Not for starting threads, have seen it with spammers posting the same advertisement in a dozen threads or so.

The 25 posts before starting a thread has good cause.

 

But for some it isn't enough.

[Calm]

Yeah, but having mods required to approve, while even more effective, would be way too time consuming for them.

Given this happening once every ten years or so, a little patience waiting for mods to show up will pay off.

And if they don't lock them all down and leave him a few open to discuss, it is not like Tom won't have places to post his stuff even if he's limited to 12 a day. He can just keep adding to his threads.

He is extreme enough I am wondering if it will get him banned though.

[Nevo]

At least Tom's threads have drawn Brant Gardner out of lurking mode, so that's a good thing.

 

(Only a couple more weeks until Brant's new book is out. Looking forward to it!)

[Calm]

My own reaction.

[Tom m]

I looked at your evidence. Dan Vogel already plowed this ground in Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon. If you want to show that the Book of Mormon is ancient, emphasizing continuity with early nineteenth-century beliefs about the mound builders probably isn't the way to go.

In this case Dan Vogel is doing a great work.

[Bobbieaware]

Yeah, but having mods required to approve, while even more effective, would be way too time consuming for them.

Given this happening once every ten years or so, a little patience waiting for mods to show up will pay off.

And if they don't lock them all down and leave him a few open to discuss, it is not like Tom won't have places to post his stuff even if he's limited to 12 a day. He can just keep adding to his threads.

He is extreme enough I am wondering if it will get him banned though.

Is it not true ignored threads are soon relegated to the bottom of the heap without any administrative action by the moderators?

[Calm]

They can be resurrected at anytime. Iirc they used to be locked automatically if inactive for six months, but I think that stopped in 2011 or so.

The problem with mass posting of threads is it moves active threads to the second page, causing them to die a premature death. People miss seeing responses to their posts which makes a lot of effort a waste of time.

[Hagoth]

Has it occurred to anyone besides Dan Vogel that maybe the the Book of Mormon was inspired by the same "evidences" that Tom finds so convincing?  Or am I not allowed to say things like that in this forum?

[Calm]

You can say it all you want if you are polite at the same time.

[Brant Gardner]

Has it occurred to anyone besides Dan Vogel that maybe the the Book of Mormon was inspired by the same "evidences" that Tom finds so convincing?  Or am I not allowed to say things like that in this forum?

I have been going through some unpublished papers from Gordon Thomasson. He predicted that approach in the mid to late 60s. I don't remember the earliest one he found, except that the author speculated that since there were Delawares near places Joseph had lived that Joseph had heard and incorporated old Lenape material. All speculation without evidence, but the answer to your question is that it is a somewhat recent development, but does precede Vogel.

[carbon dioxide]

But for some it isn't enough.

Probably should be a rule that a person can only start 3 new threads in a 24 hour period. 

[Anijen]

Some important questions to ask when considering any Hopewell site as a possible setting for the Book of Mormon:

 

Is any of the evidence submitted controversial, such as do many believe such item is a fake i.e. Bat Creek Stone?

Does the evidence presented date to the time of the Book of Mormon?

Did they have a written language?

Did the population of the Hopewell site in question match what the population a city from the Book of Mormon have?

Did that population number exist in the time of the Book of Mormon? An example of this is the largest Hopewell mound in the U.S. is Cahokia, but remember Cahokia at its highest populated peak [50K] did not meet the number as written about in the Book of Mormon and at that peak was 1150 AD (not during the time of the Book of Mormon).

 

Those are just a few questions perhaps ought to be considered when discussing a possible Hopewell setting for the Book of Mormon.

[hagoth7]

....Or am I not allowed to say things like that in this forum?

Although off topic, I have to ask....where did you get your clever avatar picture?

[KevinG]

Although off topic, I have to ask....where did you get your clever avatar picture?

 

I think this was in the newly discovered Joseph Smith papers.

 

[Hagoth]

I whipped it up on Photoshop. I thought it was a fun tongue-in-cheek commentary on the arguments I was seeing online when I first started dipping my toe into Mormon forums. It seems to be taking on a life of its own now. I've seen it popping up on lapel pins, tie tacks, etc.