Bom Evidence A Lost Gospel And Scriptures Of Native Americans

[Tom m]

A lost book/Gospel
(About Gaspesian/Mik Maq Indians)
“They hold, further, that it could well have been a fact that these
individuals were instructed in the sacred mysteries of our holy
Religion, and that they had even a knowledge and the use of
letters, since, in the establishment of colonies, it is customary
to send there men who are alike learned and pious, in order
that they may teach to the peoples, along with purely
human knowledge, the most solid maxims of Christian wisdom
and piety. Nobody, however, having followed them in these
glorious employments, the knowledge which they had of the
true God, of letters, and of their origin, was thus gradually
lost and effaced from the minds of their unfortunate posterity
by the lapse of time.”
(Clercq 1680 pg86)

 

(Gaspesian/Mik Maq Indians)
“these people had received in times past a knowledge
of the Gospel and of Christianity, which they have
finally lost through the negligence and the licentiousness of
their ancestors.”
(Clercq 1680 pg86)

 

(Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina)
“These (Hattera Indians) tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others"
(John Lawson 1709 pg62)

 

(In reference to the North American Indians)
“It is said among their principal or beloved men, that they have it handed down from their ancestors, that the book which the white people have was once theirs. That while they say that their forefathers were possessed of an extraordinary divine spirit, by which they foretold future events, and controlled the common course of nature, and this they transmitted to their offspring, on condition of their obeying the sacred laws. That they did by these means bring down showers of plenty on the beloved people. But that this power, for a long time past, had entirely ceased.”
(Boudinet 1816 pg 114)

 

“ Colonel M. Inquired why the Indians had not learned these arts of the white people. He replied indefinitely, relating that the great spirit had once given the Indians a book, which taught them all these arts, but that they had lost it, and had never since regained the knowledge of them.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)

 

“According to an old Cherokee quoted by Buttrick, '
' God gave the red man a book and a paper and told him to write, but he merely made marks on the paper, and as he could not read or write, the Lord gave him a bow and arrows, and gave the book to the white man." Boudinot, in "A Star in the West,"' quoted by the same author, says: "They have it handed down from their ancestors, that the book which the white people have was once theirs; that while they had it they prospered exceedingly; but that the white people bought it of them and learned many things from it, while the Indians lost credit, offended the Great Spirit, and suffered exceedingly from the neighboring nations; that the Great Spirit took pity on them and directed them to this country,"
(Mooney 1902 pg483)

 

“According to Morgan, the Muscogee proper, and perhaps also their incorporated tribes, have 22 clans. Of these the Wind appears to be the leading one, possessing privileges accorded to no other clan, including the hereditary guardianship of the ancient metal tablets which constitute the palladium of the tribe.” (palladium’s meaning in the 19th and 18th century means for safety)
(Mooney 1902 pg499)

 

[Brant Gardner]

This whole literature began in Mexico and the same stories and evidence are found there long before they were collected in the Northeast.

[Tom m]

That's a complete falsehood. Some of the books are from 1680 when the very first Jesuit priest first arrived in North America and observed native American customs, language and beliefs. From what I can tell no Jesuit priest ever compared mayan and Aztec culture and language to Hebrew beliefs and customs and language.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[Calm]

Prove it.

I've seen Brant's work and carefully documented and analyzed research. He is credible.

Yours...not so impressive.

Edited July 3, 2015 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

That's a complete falsehood.

 

And this is rude and uncalled for.

[Tom m]

And this is rude and uncalled for.

I would like to see the evidence for it.

[ERayR]

I would like to see the evidence for it.

 

From your posting style I have my doubts but here is a few of many.

 

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/mayan.htm

 

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

 

http://www.britannica.com/topic/Quetzalcoatl

 

For your own research google quetzalcoatl bearded white god

[Brant Gardner]

Some of the books are from 1680 when the very first Jesuit priest first arrived in North America and observed native American customs, language and beliefs. From what I can tell no Jesuit priest ever compared mayan and Aztec culture and language to Hebrew beliefs and customs and language.

Those who wrote about Central America were typically Franciscans, not Jesuits. I'm not sure why that mattered. However, many of them were writing in the late 1500s. (edited to be a little clearer about who we are talking about) Edited July 4, 2015 by Brant Gardner

[Tom m]

_{Your right Father Clercq was a Catholic Franciscan but his writing are about the Mik Maq Indians and their beliefs and culture never does he mention Mayan or Aztex Indians .}

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[Calm]

What is your purpose posting on the board?

 

Do you see yourself as persuasive with your posting style?

[Tom m]

From your posting style I have my doubts but here is a few of many.

 

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/mayan.htm

 

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

 

http://www.britannica.com/topic/Quetzalcoatl

 

For your own research google quetzalcoatl bearded white god

In north native American legend I see absolutely no ties to Quetzalcoatl. If you do please point them out. If anything Quetzalcoatl came from north American Indians whose trade extended farther down then expected which of course is how extensive the Hopewell Indian trade system was.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Tom m

[Bob Crockett]

What is your purpose posting on the board?

 

Do you see yourself as persuasive with your posting style?

I'm being persuaded.  

[Bobbieaware]

From your posting style I have my doubts but here is a few of many.

http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/mayan.htm

http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme9.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl

Y

http://www.britannica.com/topic/Quetzalcoatl

For your own research google quetzalcoatl bearded white god

As an LDS church member who thinks it's foolish to make up one's mind as to the whereabouts of the Nephite civilization until the Lotd himself reveals it, I must say I wouldn't be at all surprised that if it's one day proven the Nephites lived in the heartland of North America, than rather rejoice in that wonderful new knowledge the Mesoamerican advocates would lock themselves in their bedrooms pout and sulk for a month. The reverse is also likely true when it comes to the advocates of the heartland theory. I think it's best not to be presumptuous, especially when we know the Lord is full of so many shocking surprises.

I'm wondering if it's ever dawned on the folks of both camps that the Lord may have deliberately buried and obscured any convincing archaeological evidence so that the Latter-day Saints would be challenged to a trial of faith in order to see if they will trust in the testimony of the Spirit, or weaken in faith and begin trust in the arm of flesh?

The Book of Mormom is its own greatest evidence and when it comes to empirical evidence in support of its historical authenticity, I will say the Lord knows how to do his own work. And he has said as much, for by his own word he testified that the day for the revelation of such things will come, and when that day does come there will be many things revealed "which no man knew." So why not sit back and relax instead of getting prematurely invested in the theories of men and risk the very real possibility of making absolute fools out of yourselves?

32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—

33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—

34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven. (D&C 101)

Edited July 3, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[ERayR]

In north native American legend I see absolutely no ties to Quetzalcoatl. If you do please point them out. If anything Quetzalcoatl came from north American Indians whose trade extended farther down then expected which of course is how extensive the Hopewell Indian trade system was.

 

Read the references, this time for comprehension.

[ERayR]

I'm being persuaded.  

 

Some are easier than others.

[Calm]

I'm being persuaded.  

Of what?

[Calm]

rather rejoice in that wonderful new knowledge the Mesoamerican advocates would lock themselves in their bedrooms pout and sulk for a month

 

I wouldn't clump all advocates of either side into one type.  The scholars I find credible will take in new evidence and alter their positions and not have emotional outbursts, just as they've looked at and adapted new evidence over the decades already.

Edited July 3, 2015 by calmoriah

[Brant Gardner]

In north native American legend I see absolutely no ties to Quetzalcoatl.

I agree that you don't see in in the northeast, but there are connections in the southwest. A lot of what might be found is probably related to older layers of the legend.

If anything Quetzalcoatl came from north American Indians whose trade extended farther down then expected which of course is how extensive the Hopewell Indian trade system was.

This is one where I would have to ask you for any kind of source because it is contrary to everything we know. There was some very long range trade from some Mesoamerican cultures pushing to the north, but I haven't seen any indication of much mythology traveling south. Now, I can find some traces of southwestern legendary material that would have accompanied the Chichimeca, but nothing at all from the area you are talking about.

However, none of that actually deals with the problem. You have suggested that because you find legends speaking of white natives and books that it must necessarily show that the Book of Mormon took place in North America. That evidence cannot demonstrate your point because similar evidence from even earlier is present in Central America.

[Tom m]

Brant

I think the article posted today is incredible it shows that Hopewell trade not only extended the Rocky Mountains but to South America. North America has a extinct horse but I think this prove or gives great credibility to the use of horses and chariots mentioned in America. It also shows that the Hopewell did smelting and early accounts of ancient furnaces are credible.

Brant in my opinion your expertise are best suited studying the Hopewell.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mann-mound-site-indiana-looks-to-be-game-changer

"The discovery of incisor teeth from grizzly bears, which are not native to Indiana, shows that Hopewell residents of the Mann Site had contact with the North American West, where grizzly bears are more common. Jaguars and panthers aren't from Indiana, either, but they show up at the Mann Hopewell Site as beautifully detailed carvings. "

"Clay figurines discovered on the Mann Hopewell Site show curious faces with slanted eyes, which were not a Hopewell feature. Some brave experts have come forward to say the figurines show a connection between Indiana and Central or South America. "

"most remarkable discovery at Mann. Linderman says scientists are starting tests on what appears to be evidence of lead smelting. The practice of melting metals at a very high temperature is just one of the many questions archaeologists will be confronting in upcoming digs that they hope will clear up at least a few of the Mann Hopewell Site's, and by extension, American prehistory's greatest mysteries. There have been ancient furnaces found at several Ohio sites, the most notable called Spruce Hill, but there was evidence tampering and some would say a cover-up to keep these discoveries quiet. Smelting is a technological practice that, until recently acknowledged at Mann, was only introduced in North America after the arrival of the French, well over 1,000 years after the Hopewell era. "It's a sleeping giant," says museum curator Greenan, "and it's going to take its place as one of the most important archaeological sites in North America."

[ERayR]

Brant

I think the article posted today is incredible it shows that Hopewell trade not only extended the Rocky Mountains but to South America. North America has a extinct horse but I think this prove or gives great credibility to the use of horses and chariots mentioned in America. It also shows that the Hopewell did smelting and early accounts of ancient furnaces are credible.

Brant in my opinion your expertise are best suited studying the Hopewell.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mann-mound-site-indiana-looks-to-be-game-changer

"The discovery of incisor teeth from grizzly bears, which are not native to Indiana, shows that Hopewell residents of the Mann Site had contact with the North American West, where grizzly bears are more common. Jaguars and panthers aren't from Indiana, either, but they show up at the Mann Hopewell Site as beautifully detailed carvings. "

"Clay figurines discovered on the Mann Hopewell Site show curious faces with slanted eyes, which were not a Hopewell feature. Some brave experts have come forward to say the figurines show a connection between Indiana and Central or South America. "

"most remarkable discovery at Mann. Linderman says scientists are starting tests on what appears to be evidence of lead smelting. The practice of melting metals at a very high temperature is just one of the many questions archaeologists will be confronting in upcoming digs that they hope will clear up at least a few of the Mann Hopewell Site's, and by extension, American prehistory's greatest mysteries. There have been ancient furnaces found at several Ohio sites, the most notable called Spruce Hill, but there was evidence tampering and some would say a cover-up to keep these discoveries quiet. Smelting is a technological practice that, until recently acknowledged at Mann, was only introduced in North America after the arrival of the French, well over 1,000 years after the Hopewell era. "It's a sleeping giant," says museum curator Greenan, "and it's going to take its place as one of the most important archaeological sites in North America."

 

I have this neat bridge for sale.

[Brant Gardner]

Brant in my opinion your expertise are best suited studying the Hopewell.

Tom, we clearly disagree. Let me give you some very specific points.

1) the narrow neck you suggest is north of the hill Cumorah you suggest. That is contrary to the Book of Mormon.

2) Bountiful is supposed to protect the entrance to the land northward, which means it must be south of the narrow neck and Cumorah. You get one of two, but that isn't enough.

Next, let's look at the Adena and Hopewell. The dates for each seem to fit the Jaredites and Nephites respectively. However, that is where the correlation ends. In the Book of Mormon, the Jaredites have to be north of the Nephites. The Nephites aren't in Jaredite territory until much later when they move into desolation. So we don't have Jaredites in Nephite lands until very late--after there are no longer any Jaredites. That creates a problem for the Adena/Jaredite hypothesis because the Adena preceded the Hopewell in most of their regions, and in the same places. The dates might work, but the relative geography and cultural interactions do not fit.

Finally, the NY Cumorah is located in an area where there were no populations contemporary with the Nephites, and certainly no evidence of any massive battle in that location. In fact, the hill is not that militarily impressive. There isn't much of a reason for it to have been selected and then taken a year to get ready for the battle. There is simply no evidence.

The only archaeology that is given often given to support the Northeastern hypothesis is based on questionable work that was done before modern archaeological methods were invented. Much of what they found (like evidence of large men) is pure fabrication.

So, you have a geography that contradicts the Book of Mormon. You have historical/geographical peoples whose relationship to each other contradicts the Book of Mormon.

You have a site (in the wrong relative place) that is supposedly a major military site but for which there is no evidence of any population, let alone a major battle.

You propose DNA evidence that only looks good if you don't actually read the most recent articles AND if you selectively ignore the fact that all of the articles have that DNA marker arriving thousands of years before even the Jaredites.

To counter such serious issues, you have out of date archaeology and legends and myths that were collected by non-professionals--which exhibit known traits of European contamination--and which have been subsequently contradicted by all linguistic and folklore studies.

For those reasons, I really disagree that my time would be better spent in North America.

[Hagoth]

I'm wondering if it's ever dawned on the folks of both camps that the Lord may have deliberately buried and obscured any convincing archaeological evidence so that the Latter-day Saints would be challenged to a trial of faith in order to see if they will trust in the testimony of the Spiritme, or weaken in faith and begin trust in the arm of flesh?

Why didn't he hide Jerusalem, Egypt and Rome? This reminds me a bit of the Young Earth creationists who think God faked fossils to test our faith in the Bible. I certainly hope God isn't a deceiver trying to trip us up for using the brains he gave us.