Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I'd say questioning, promoting dialogue over constructive criticism is loving the Church rather than loathing it, as you suggest. In my way of thinking, the Church can be Christ's Church and still have problems arise that need addressing and correcting. If the unquestioning and upset want to get together to worship together exclusive of the rest of us, I say more power to ya. But I find great privilege and benefit from worshipping with those who disagree with me. I'd feel less if you all formed an elitist group of worshippers while excluding the rest of us. Not your job to fix it and the Lord will never inspire you to try it outside your stewardship.
stemelbow Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Not your job to fix it and the Lord will never inspire you to try it outside your stewardship. yes, I believe I've heard you tell me that already. I disagree. You're unwilling to budge. I'm unwilling to accept the notion that I can't work to fix and that God will not inspire average members to help the rest. Time to admit impasse, it seems to me, and move on. In the mean time I think i'll continue to accept that others have perspectives that allow me to join them and explore this issue further. BTW, are you the poster that went by lvj(number) but changed your name? Edited June 10, 2015 by stemelbow 1
Gray Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Again they came to Jerusalem. As he was walking in the temple, the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders came to him and said, “By what authority are you doing these things? Who gave you this authority to do them?” All the crowds were amazed and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons, that this fellow casts out the demons.” 2
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 yes, I believe I've heard you tell me that already. I disagree. You're unwilling to budge. I'm unwilling to accept the notion that I can't work to fix and that God will not inspire average members to help the rest. Time to admit impasse, it seems to me, and move on.In the mean time I think i'll continue to accept that others have perspectives that allow me to join them and explore this issue further.BTW, are you the poster that went by lvj(number) but changed your name? I agree, but just know as long as you keep bringing up things you want to try and fix (authoritatively), I will keep reminding you that you don't have the authority to do so. Yes, I am. Changed my username to something a little bit more descriptive. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Again they came to Jerusalem. As he was walking in the temple, the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders came to him and said, “By what authority are you doing these things? Who gave you this authority to do them?” All the crowds were amazed and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons, that this fellow casts out the demons.” I don't think anyone would argue about Christ's authority (he was and is God after all). Do you see how bringing that up here doesn't really help here? 1
HappyJackWagon Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Perhaps your ward has a problem with Phariseeism. Mine doesn't seem to have this as an issue.To point out the obvious, the Pharisees didn't recognize the problem in themselves so I don't think it's a strong argument to say that just because you don't see a problem it doesn't exist. 3
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 To point out the obvious, the Pharisees didn't recognize the problem in themselves so I don't think it's a strong argument to say that just because you don't see a problem it doesn't exist. This is a fair point. I think this would actually be a good question for self reflection. What Pharisaical qualities do I have that I have yet to recognize? Much to ponder.
stemelbow Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 I agree, but just know as long as you keep bringing up things you want to try and fix (authoritatively), I will keep reminding you that you don't have the authority to do so. Yes, I am. Changed my username to something a little bit more descriptive. I like our difference of opinion on this. Helps me understand. To me, God gives authority by inspiring action. To you, it seems, you trust that God's method will always be working with the top of the Church and the rest will receive benefit that way. To me, God can use any person to accomplish His designs. To you, God has set the method of inspiration, and it must strictly follow the priesthood authority structure. Thus a person lower in the hierarchy can't be inspired to contribute to the cause moreso than to those who are equal or lower. I find your model troubling because it's exclusive. You seem to find mine troubling because it's open and free. Interesting how such disagreement can be found among the Saints. 1
stemelbow Posted June 10, 2015 Author Posted June 10, 2015 This is a fair point. I think this would actually be a good question for self reflection. What Pharisaical qualities do I have that I have yet to recognize? Much to ponder. And seeing how the Pharisees were condemned as a group, why can't we pose the question with a "we" instead of an "I"? 1
Gray Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) I don't think anyone would argue about Christ's authority (he was and is God after all). Do you see how bringing that up here doesn't really help here? I'm not suggesting that Stem is Christ, I just think it's amusing that people react to him the same way the pharisees reacted to Jesus. Specifically in a thread about Pharisaical behavior. Carry on. Edited June 10, 2015 by Gray 2
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I like our difference of opinion on this. Helps me understand.To me, God gives authority by inspiring action.To you, it seems, you trust that God's method will always be working with the top of the Church and the rest will receive benefit that way.To me, God can use any person to accomplish His designs.To you, God has set the method of inspiration, and it must strictly follow the priesthood authority structure. Thus a person lower in the hierarchy can't be inspired to contribute to the cause moreso than to those who are equal or lower.I find your model troubling because it's exclusive. You seem to find mine troubling because it's open and free.Interesting how such disagreement can be found among the Saints. Haha. I love how you described my position vs. how you described yours. Exclusive vs. Open and free. Nice. I think that sets the tone nicely for us to discuss our difference of opinion. However, if nothing else it confirms my opinion that people who have a hard time excepting that they have no authority outside of their stewardship are in large part effected by their western notions of democracy, community involvement, etc. First, I would direct your eyes to my signature quotes for a refresher. Those are either from official LDS sources or prophets and apostles. I think they make it abundantly clear what our role is. However, I concede that the Lord can and does inspire everyday people to do much good. However, the Lord only inspires that good within our stewardship. The Lord, for example, won't inspire me (a GD instructor) to fix inefficiencies in the Ward Counsel. The Lord also won't inspire me to fix problems with how disciplinary counsels are conducted in my ward or at the general level. The Lord will reveal ways in which I can be a better GD instructor, better meet the needs of the families I hometeach, where to live, how to be a better husband and father, how to be a better citizen in the community and reveal other truths that are for my personal edification (if such things have not been revealed by the prophets and apostles then I have a sacred obligation to keep them to myself until such time). The Lord's house is a house of order. He calls who he wants to lead when he wants them to do so. You seem to think the Church is a democracy, where everybody's opinion matters (as Joseph Fielding McConkie used to famously say, "the Lord doesn't give a damn what you think."). That's not how the kingdom of God works. I think that makes a lot of people uncomfortable and angry. But its true. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I'm not suggesting that Stem is Christ, I just think it's amusing that people react to him the same way the pharisees reacted to Jesus in a thread about Pharisaical behavior. Carry on. I don't, because, as you say Stem is not Christ. As has been repeatedly said by many in this thread, if the question was put to each of us individually, then the thread would have evolved much, much differently. No one that I can see has a problem applying these questions to themselves (I know I don't), so its not a question of "the wicked take the truth to be hard" as some seem to think. It is a question of stewardship and authority. Both of which are lacking, yet vitally important. 3
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 And seeing how the Pharisees were condemned as a group, why can't we pose the question with a "we" instead of an "I"? Because we don't have authority.
Gray Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) I don't, because, as you say Stem is not Christ. As has been repeatedly said by many in this thread, if the question was put to each of us individually, then the thread would have evolved much, much differently. No one that I can see has a problem applying these questions to themselves (I know I don't), so its not a question of "the wicked take the truth to be hard" as some seem to think. It is a question of stewardship and authority. Both of which are lacking, yet vitally important. Yes, that seems to have been the reasoning of the Pharisees too. Maybe the whole idea of stewardship is a holdover from that worldview. Please understand I'm not treating this very seriously or trying to single you out. Each of us has our own Pharisee inside us. Edited June 10, 2015 by Gray 2
HappyJackWagon Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Because we don't have authority.I view this is as a systemic problem. It's a great way to pass the buck and not take responsibility because it's "not MY problem or MY responsibility." Think of all the good that could be done if people were empowered to work within the church to make things better and not worry so much that the Great Bureaucrat In the Sky will be upset because we don't know our place. God (not the great Bureaucrat in the Sky) gave us minds and passions that allow us to act for ourselves and not be merely acted upon. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Yes, that seems to have been the reasoning of the Pharisees too. CFR that the pharisees were willing to consider the tough accusations that Christ (authoritatively) accused them of. I am expecting a thorough treatment here. Because it would go a long way in changing my mind. I am being serious. 1
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I view this is as a systemic problem. It's a great way to pass the buck and not take responsibility because it's "not MY problem or MY responsibility." Think of all the good that could be done if people were empowered to work within the church to make things better and not worry so much that the Great Bureaucrat In the Sky will be upset because we don't know our place. God (not the great Bureaucrat in the Sky) gave us minds and passions that allow us to act for ourselves and not be merely acted upon. Wow. Is that really how you think I feel about God? That I see him as a bureaucrat? Pretty offensive stuff. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 CFR that the pharisees were willing to consider the tough accusations that Christ (authoritatively) accused them of. I am expecting a thorough treatment here. Because it would go a long way in changing my mind. I am being serious.You totally don't get his point. The pharisees wouldn't listen because they didn't view it as within Christ's stewardship. That is the similarity to some positions on this board. 3
HappyJackWagon Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 Wow. Is that really how you think I feel about God? That I see him as a bureaucrat? Pretty offensive stuff. I never said YOU feel that way, but in many ways its the way the pharisees viewed him. They were all about dotting the I's and crossing the T's to make sure they were pleasing to God and could pass his judgement (similar to a bureaucrat).
Gray Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 CFR that the pharisees were willing to consider the tough accusations that Christ (authoritatively) accused them of. I am expecting a thorough treatment here. Because it would go a long way in changing my mind. I am being serious. I was thinking specifically of these two things you said: I don't, because, as you say Stem is not Christ. ... It is a question of stewardship and authority The Pharisees didn't consider Jesus to be the Messiah, and were concerned with questions of authority.
mormonnewb Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 I thought the Holy Spirit was our "puker" of residence? Newb, what you are proposing is that we let humans decide was is acceptable and what is not....hmm, seems like there is a problem there. Who tells the pukers that need to be puked up?I hate to break it to you but HUMANS are currently deciding what is acceptable. They are often inspired by the Spirit in coming to their decisions but unless they have forfeited their agency, they are ultimately in control of their decisions. To paraphrase something Pres. Uchtdorf taught us, HF works through flawed human beings because that's all He has to work with. Sorry for the buzzkill, but the prophets are ... gulp ... HUMAN. 3
Popular Post Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Popular Post Posted June 10, 2015 You totally don't get his point. The pharisees wouldn't listen because they didn't view it as within Christ's stewardship. That is the similarity to some positions on this board. Christ established that he did have such stewardship. People on this board have yet to do so. To this point, no one has claimed a prompting of the Spirit to ask us all these questions or to throw the charge at our feet. Christ repeatedly gave us the source of His authority. And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5
Mystery Meat Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) I was thinking specifically of these two things you said: I don't, because, as you say Stem is not Christ. ... It is a question of stewardship and authority The Pharisees didn't consider Jesus to be the Messiah, and were concerned with questions of authority. And the Lord stated his authority. They rejected it (tragically). Still waiting for anyone to say that God has authorized them to call out the Church in this thread. "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron." How was Aaron called? Can someone in this thread show me they were likewise called? Edited June 10, 2015 by Mystery Meat 1
Gray Posted June 10, 2015 Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) And the Lord stated his authority. They rejected it (tragically). Still waiting for anyone to say that God has authorized them to call out the Church in this thread. "And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron." How was Aaron called? That quote is from Hebrews, author unknown. Wasn't the subject the sayings of Jesus (or attributed to Jesus) regarding the Pharisees? Jesus declined to tell the Pharisees where his authority came from. Edited June 10, 2015 by Gray
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