Was Jesus The Son Of God Before The Earth Was Created?

[TheSkepticChristian]

If you think that persons and beings are the same thing, then that's your belief, not mine, or those of traditional Christianity through the ages. 

 

Please watch the video, it tells you the problem

 

[danielwoods]

The Trinity is nowhere found in the Bible, the Godhead is. Three individual Gods that act as one.

 

There are not three individual Gods. That isn't in the Bible either.

 

Please watch the video, it tells you the problem

 

The problem is bad analogies told by a cartoon. Got it.

[TheSkepticChristian]

 

There are not three individual Gods. That isn't in the Bible either.

 

Thanks for admitting that the Trinity is not described in the Bible. Why didn't God describe one of the most important doctrines of traditional christianity in the bible?

All you can do is quote ambiguous passages. 

 

 

 The problem is bad analogies told by a cartoon. Got it.

 

a cartoon made by a pastor that believes in the Trinity. However, he believes that there is no good analogy to explain the Trinity. 

Edited May 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[danielwoods]

Thanks for admitting that the Trinity is not described in the Bible. Why didn't God describe one of the most important doctrines of traditional christianity in the bible?

All you can do is quote ambiguous passages. 

 

 

 

a cartoon made by a pastor that believes in the Trinity. However, he believes that there is no good analogy to explain the Trinity. 

 

Your game is called, "gotcha" and I'm not playing. 

 

If you're interested in the trinity, there is plenty of information out there. If you're interested in tearing those down who believe in traditional forms of christianity. Oh well, it matters not what you think or believe or claim. The bible does describe the trinity (it simply doesn't use that word to do it), which is why it's such a foundational doctrine/belief. 

[TheSkepticChristian]

The bible does describe the trinity (it simply doesn't use that word to do it), which is why it's such a foundational doctrine/belief. 

 

CFR 

 

Please don't quote ambiguous passages 

 

 

 

Modalism (i.e. Sabellianism, Noetianism and Patripassianism) 

...taught that the three persons of the Trinity as different “modes” of the Godhead. Adherants believed that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct personalities, but different modes of God's self-revelation. A typical modalist approach is to regard God as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Spirit in sanctification. In other words, God exists as Father, Son and Spirit in different eras, but never as triune. Stemming from Modalism, Patripassianism believed that the Father suffered as the Son.

Tritheism 

...Tritheism confessses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three independent divine beings; three separate gods who share the 'same substance'. 

Arianism 

...taught that the preexistent Christ was the first and greatest of God’s creatures but denied his fully divine status. The Arian controversy was of major importance in the development of Christology during the fourth century and was addressed definitely in the Nicene Creed.

Docetism

...taught that Jesus Christ as a purely divine being who only had the “appearance” of being human. Regarding his suffering, some versions taught that Jesus’ divinity abandoned or left him upon the cross while other claimed that he only appeared to suffer (much like he only appeared to be human).

Ebionitism

...taught that while Jesus was endowed with particular charismatic gifts which distinguished him from other humans but nonetheless regarded Him as a purely human figure.

Macedonianism

...that that the Holy Spirit is a created being.

Adoptionism

...taught that Jesus was born totally human and only later was “adopted” – either at his baptism or at his resurrection – by God in a special (i.e. divine) way.

Partialism 

...taught that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are components of the one God. This led them to believe that each of the persons of the Trinity is only part God, only becoming fully God when they come together.

Edited May 15, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[danielwoods]

CFR 

 

Please don't quote ambiguous passages 

 

I posted three links to web sites that answered this CFR and you call them what you will. Your lack of actual interest in the topic is not something I can solve. 

[TheSkepticChristian]

I posted three links to web sites that answered this CFR and you call them what you will. Your lack of actual interest in the topic is not something I can solve. 

 

 

 

and I am still waiting, how is the Trinity possible? How is 1 + 1 +1 = 1? The Math tells me that three is three, not one. 

[danielwoods]

 

 

 

and I am still waiting, how is the Trinity possible? How is 1 + 1 +1 = 1? The Math tells me that three is three, not one. 

 

Yeah Bart's a reliable source. 

 

How is the Trinity possible?

 

You don't seem to be asking a question, rather you seem to be stating that it can't be true because it doesn't fit into your definitions. Oh well. Good luck with that. Not everything is going to be within our grasp. 

Edited May 15, 2015 by danielwoods

[Gray]

 

 

and I am still waiting, how is the Trinity possible? How is 1 + 1 +1 = 1? The Math tells me that three is three, not one. 

 

There is one first presidency. But it's made up of three people. 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

[TheSkepticChristian]

There is one first presidency. But it's made up of three people. 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

 

The first presidency is a group of three people, that is not a good analogy to explain the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. 

 

The Trinity is three distinct and separate persons, but somehow at the same time one being (which is the same thing).There is a reason why traditional Christians say  the Trinity is the greatest mystery. Please watch the video so you can understand the problem 

 

Edited May 15, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Spammer]

The first presidency is a group of three people, that is not a good analogy to explain the traditional doctrine of the Trinity.

The Trinity is three distinct and separate persons, but somehow at the same time one being (which is the same thing).There is a reason why traditional Christians say the Trinity is the greatest mystery. Please watch the video so you can understand the problem

 

Trinitarians believe the one divine being is uncreated, immaterial, and infinite in every way and created the finite, material cosmos ex nihilo. All human language and concepts, including math, are limited and contingent human conventions, stuck as we are in space and time, and do not apply, though we're still forced to use them anyway in our lame attempts to try to understand and describe the Infinite. The reason the video's creator says the analogies are problematic is because every analogy we can think of is problematic.  By definition.  We can only know God if he reveals Himself to us, which He did - in the person of the Divine Logos, the second person of the Holy Trinity, God made man..

Edited May 15, 2015 by Spammer

[Gray]

 

The Trinity is three distinct and separate persons, but somehow at the same time one being (which is the same thing).

 

I'm not sure that's true. 

[Spammer]

I'm not sure that's true. 

 

It's isn't true.  The Holy Trinity is one God in three persons.  One being in three persons.  Human beings are finite and material.  As such, each human is one being in one person. 

[TheSkepticChristian]

It's isn't true.  The Holy Trinity is one God in three persons 

 

that is what I said, but please explain how is the possible?

[TheSkepticChristian]

I'm not sure that's true. 

 

Here is what the Trinity believers say 

 

 

The New Testament clearly states that Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14); the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons (John 17). Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He, too, is a separate person. There can be no question that the New Testament proclaims there is only One God and that He exists in three distinct persons.

http://bible-truth.org/Trinity.html

 

The Trinity is not three substances but three persons existing simultaneously... As Athanasius coined the phrase "not dividing the substance nor confusing the persons."

http://www.letusreason.org/Trin7.htm

 

 

How can there be three separate persons- The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost - but yet still all be the same God? This is truly a question that we take on faith as Catholics, because our limited human brains simply cannot understand it

http://www.catholicbible101.com/theholytrinity.htm

 

 

the Trinity is three separate persons who share the same nature.

https://C***.org/questions-if-jesus-god-then-who-did-he-pray

 

 

The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is only one God, but that within the nature of the one God there exist three distinct, separate, and equal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

http://www.consider.org/library/trinity.htm

Edited May 16, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[rodheadlee]

There is one first presidency. But it's made up of three people. 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

I think it's a good analogy, after all it's patterned after God the Father's first Presidency.

[TheSkepticChristian]

I think it's a good analogy, after all it's patterned after God the Father's first Presidency.

 

but it doesn't work for the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. 

 

Trinity believers say 

 

 

 

The New Testament clearly states that Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14); the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons (John 17). Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He, too, is a separate person. There can be no question that the New Testament proclaims there is only One God and that He exists in three distinct persons.

http://bible-truth.org/Trinity.html

 

 

How can there be three separate persons- The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost - but yet still all be the same God? This is truly a question that we take on faith as Catholics, because our limited human brains simply cannot understand it

http://www.catholicbible101.com/theholytrinity.htm

 

 

the Trinity is three separate persons who share the same nature.

https://C***.org/questions-if-jesus-god-then-who-did-he-pray

 

 

 

 

The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is only one God, but that within the nature of the one God there exist three distinct, separate, and equal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

http://www.consider.org/library/trinity.htm

 

 

The Trinity is not three substances but three persons existing simultaneously... As Athanasius coined the phrase "not dividing the substance nor confusing the persons."

http://www.letusreason.org/Trin7.htm

 

[rodheadlee]

but it doesn't work for the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. 

 

Trinity believers say 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well that's one main reason I joined the Church, the theology made sense to me.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It's isn't true.  The Holy Trinity is one God in three persons.  One being in three persons.  Human beings are finite and material.  As such, each human is one being in one person. 

Do humans cease to exist at some point? That seems a rather moot point to claims that "humans are finite and material". Were does the bible state that God is immaterial?

 

And how does being "infinite" mean that  one God in three persons? This is just asserted. It has never once explained in any way that makes sense.

[bluebell]

It's isn't true.  The Holy Trinity is one God in three persons.  One being in three persons.  Human beings are finite and material.  As such, each human is one being in one person. 

 

How does that work in regards to the Son of God, who is both fully human and fully God, and has a physical resurrected body which is finite and material?

[coolrok7]

See Phillipians 2.Jesus has two natures, both God and man in the incarnation.

He already existed with no beginning as Deity (not born to a heavenly mother as a spirit child).

He then took the form of a man in order to suffer death as spirits cannot die because there is no physical form to separate from.

He, not the Father/Holy Spirit now has a glorified physical form which does not make us deity.

[bluebell]

See Phillipians 2.Jesus has two natures, both God and man in the incarnation.

He already existed with no beginning as Deity (not born to a heavenly mother as a spirit child).

He then took the form of a man in order to suffer death as spirits cannot die because there is no physical form to separate from.

He, not the Father/Holy Spirit now has a glorified physical form which does not make us deity.

 

Yes, i know that's what you believe.

 

But, according to spammer, a human (someone who is material and finite) cannot be a member of the Trinity because the human would be his own being, rather than sharing his being with two other persons.  

 

Jesus is human (as well as God) though, and has a material body, so how is he a part of the trinity?  How can He he share His being with two other spirits when He has a physical body and they don't?

 

That's all i'm asking spammer to explain.

[Zakuska]

Proverbs 8 Indicates that the "word" of God had a beginning.

 

What exactly does...  "Was I brought forth" really mean?

[coolrok7]

I believe that wisdom is being personified here in the book of Proverbs.

[TheSkepticChristian]

I believe that wisdom is being personified here in the book of Proverbs.

 

I am still waiting to know how the Trinity is possible