strappinglad Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 and treat them like Bigfoot believers well, there is a professor at Idaho State that might quibble with your portrayal of his research.
The Nehor Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 well, there is a professor at Idaho State that might quibble with your portrayal of his research. We'd probably quibble about a lot of things.
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: Yes, Yes, YES the climate is changing. The OP states the no matter what we do there is a 60% chance of mega-drought. From what I've seen of Government attempts to help, the solutions will be littered with unintended consequences, mostly to the detriment of the middle class. Follow the light bulb changes which have and will continue to present a toxic waste problem. The same will plague a massive change to electric cars. Every politician runs away from nuclear , yet thorium has amazing potential for enormous power. If you want clean energy , think hydrogen. None of these solutions can be imposed upon the public by decree . People will change if not changing COSTS them a pile of money OR if there is money to be made by a significant portion of society. I prefer to build a better mousetrap than charge $1000 for the old one. There is no serious question of the climate changing. Climate denialists withstanding. What we have now is an unprecedented rate of change. Yes 60% chance is bad, but it far better than 100% of very bad consequences if we do nothing. Everything has unintended consequences. Our job is the try to anticipate as many as possible given the information we have. Actually it is the poor that will pay the heavier burden. Places like Bangladesh will become unlivable. The heavy metals in standard incandescent lights is a problem we have yet to address. Electric cars predate internal combustion ones. Also it isn't as though the modern day internal combustion engine is without serious environmental problems. The byproducts of nuclear power generation will be with us for millions if not billions of years. Thorium has significant proliferation issues. Hydrogen is good but at best a short term solution with long term consequences like hydrogen embrittlement particularly of ferrous metals like steel. The firsts of any product as always the most costly. With wider acceptance production costs lessen because of economics of scale.
strappinglad Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Here is just a hint of the pollution problems associated with electric batteries. And this is with a MINISCULE electric car industry. But it's OK because the demand is from the West and the East can produce all the pollution it wants. Oh, and just where is all the electricity going to be coming from to power all the demand? http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091060_electric-car-batteries-graphite-and-pollution-in-china Bangladesh has been flooded out for as long as I can remember. Every cyclone season. Any place that has people living on a flood plain will feel the effects of rising water. Your point about the incandescent bulb just re-enforces my point about the CFC ones. I think that industry could make an incandescent bulb last a great deal longer than it does now. Even today I can buy one that lasts 10,000 hours. I understand there is a firehouse that has a bulb made by Edison that has been running continuously for 100 years. Such endurance would not be good for business, just like the 30 year refrigerator and the 100,000 mile tire. Maybe that's why the Celestial streets are paved with gold. No need to repave every 5 years.
thesometimesaint Posted February 28, 2015 Posted February 28, 2015 Here is just a hint of the pollution problems associated with electric batteries. And this is with a MINISCULE electric car industry. But it's OK because the demand is from the West and the East can produce all the pollution it wants.Oh, and just where is all the electricity going to be coming from to power all the demand?http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091060_electric-car-batteries-graphite-and-pollution-in-chinaBangladesh has been flooded out for as long as I can remember. Every cyclone season. Any place that has people living on a flood plain will feel the effects of rising water.Your point about the incandescent bulb just re-enforces my point about the CFC ones. I think that industry could make an incandescent bulb last a great deal longer than it does now. Even today I can buy one that lasts 10,000 hours. I understand there is a firehouse that has a bulb made by Edison that has been running continuously for 100 years. Such endurance would not be good for business, just like the 30 year refrigerator and the 100,000 mile tire.Maybe that's why the Celestial streets are paved with gold. No need to repave every 5 years. Again nothing is without some unintended consequences. Pray to the wrong God and another God will wipe you out. The US is rich compared to Bangladesh. How about places like Norforlk; Virginia or Miami Beach Florida?SEE http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/17/sea-level-rise-swamps-norfolk-us-coasts/3893825/SEE http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-10-17/news/fl-high-tides-moon-flooding-20131017_1_coastal-flooding-sea-level-rise-earthAre we going to just move our military bases and cities? How about our agricultural lands? Lithium ion batteries are good, but not without problems associated with production/use/disposal. It is always a balancing act until we invent some other means of achieving the same goal(s). Think of all the trillions of dollars that have gone into the production of just the fuels for the internal combustion engine, and you start to understand the magnitude of the problems in just that one area. My point about incandescent is that nothing is without problems. Though the actual techniques vary proper disposal and/or reuse solves the same problem for both. We need to learn that just throwing something away doesn't mean it no longer exists. With incandescent bulbs it is the turning on and off that degrades them over time. Thicker filaments help prolong them but there are real limits to even that. Everything has a useful life expectancy. IE; About 14 years for a refrigerator compressor and about 70,000 miles for automobile tires.SEE http://www.demesne.info/Home-Maintenance/Appliance-Life-Expectancy.htm Gold isn't a good material for roads. It is very soft as a metal, and polishes to a slippery shine easily. But it is one of the best best materials for the transmission of electricity.
strappinglad Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 To be clear, I believe the climate is changing. I believe that there are things that humanity could and should be doing to alleviate man's impact on the environment. Where I differ with some here is that I also believe that the world does not have the will to make the pendulum slow or reverse direction until it is well passed the point where any significant difference will happen climate wise. As a matter of fact there are a number of scientists that are of the opinion that the tipping point has already passed and that current efforts are the equivalent of using a single oar to try to change the direction of the Titanic. So far I do not share that 'chicken little' attitude.
thesometimesaint Posted March 1, 2015 Posted March 1, 2015 To be clear, I believe the climate is changing. I believe that there are things that humanity could and should be doing to alleviate man's impact on the environment. Where I differ with some here is that I also believe that the world does not have the will to make the pendulum slow or reverse direction until it is well passed the point where any significant difference will happen climate wise. As a matter of fact there are a number of scientists that are of the opinion that the tipping point has already passed and that current efforts are the equivalent of using a single oar to try to change the direction of the Titanic. So far I do not share that 'chicken little' attitude. We have undoubtedly passed some tipping points. The real questions is do we have the will to not pass any more? I don't know. I'd like to think so, but I'm skeptical. I'm not a big fan of "Chicken Little" unless he's deep fried to a deep golden crunch.
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 I do not deny man is A contributing factor but we (man) is not THE contributing factor or even a major factor. two scientists debate that topic here, it is a very interesting debate. Dr. Andrew Dessler won the debate.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 ............................................................ There is no evidence that our current global climate change has a natural cause. Sure it does: Natural human stupidity (Mosiah 2:19).
Robert F. Smith Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 To be clear, I believe the climate is changing. I believe that there are things that humanity could and should be doing to alleviate man's impact on the environment. Where I differ with some here is that I also believe that the world does not have the will to make the pendulum slow or reverse direction until it is well passed the point where any significant difference will happen climate wise. As a matter of fact there are a number of scientists that are of the opinion that the tipping point has already passed and that current efforts are the equivalent of using a single oar to try to change the direction of the Titanic. So far I do not share that 'chicken little' attitude.It will take time, but given human stupidity, we will eventually reach the sort of high temperatures last known from the Cretaceous (Mesozoic age of dinosaurs), characterized by "Surface water temperatures were about 30 °C (86 °F) at the Equator year-round, but at the poles they were 14 °C (57 °F) in winter and 17 °C (63 °F) in summer." http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/142729/Cretaceous-Period/69972/Paleoclimate . Reminds me of James Baldwin's prophetic book, The Fire Next Time.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Again nothing is without some unintended consequences. ............................................................................. What about composting toilets? http://www.letsgogreen.com/how-composting-toilets-work.html .
thesometimesaint Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 What about composting toilets? http://www.letsgogreen.com/how-composting-toilets-work.html . There is considerable effort needed to keep the aerobic environment of a composting toilet properly functioning. A great harm can be done if not properly maintained.Some don't mind the extra expense and care involved. But it is there.
hagoth7 Posted March 11, 2015 Author Posted March 11, 2015 two scientists debate that topic here, it is a very interesting debate. Dr. Andrew Dessler won the debate. I don't have two hours to watch it. In short, what does Dr. Dessler argue?
ERayR Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 I don't have two hours to watch it. In short, what does Dr. Dessler argue?MormonFreeThinker, on 11 Mar 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:two scientists debate that topic here, it is a very interesting debate. Dr. Andrew Dessler won the debate. The only thing winning a debate proves is that the winner is a better debater. It proves absolutely nothing else.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 MormonFreeThinker, on 11 Mar 2015 - 03:57 AM, said:two scientists debate that topic here, it is a very interesting debate. Dr. Andrew Dessler won the debate. The only thing winning a debate proves is that the winner is a better debater. It proves absolutely nothing else. In other words it really means nothing with regards to the validity of the claims at hand.
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 I don't have two hours to watch it. In short, what does Dr. Dessler argue? Evidence The only thing winning a debate proves is that the winner is a better debater. It proves absolutely nothing else. He won because he presented evidence. See the debate, decide for yourself. They are scientists, not politicians.
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