Danzo Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Nope, I am not going to withdraw the statement until you answer my CFR to show that your criteria for your CFR is warranted. Two can play at this inane game.It is also not an accusation. I am not convinced he did anything wrong. Having SSA and not acting on it is not a sin and there is no evidence he did act on it. I accept the withdrawal of your accusation. (or diagnosis, or whatever you want to call a judgement on someones sexual preferences)
KevinG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 And I'm 98.7% certain that whatever you may have read is demonstrably ahistorical nonsense that anachronistically projects backward categories and concepts that make sense only in the oversexualised assumptions of the late 20th-century West. I suppose that saves you from actually investing some time actually reading up on the man but I am going to go with my conclusion since I actually did read up on him and that would seem to give me an advantage. Having read up on the man, and been a Scouter for 26 years... I agree with Hamba. Assuming pederasty based on an interest in teaching and mentoring youth would condemn most teachers and mentors. It is a terrible accusation driven by agendas. 1
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 I accept the withdrawal of your accusation. (or diagnosis, or whatever you want to call a judgement on someones sexual preferences)Your failure to answer my CFR is a withdrawal of your CFR. Sorry, you lose.Having read up on the man, and been a Scouter for 26 years... I agree with Hamba. Assuming pederasty based on an interest in teaching and mentoring youth would condemn most teachers and mentors. It is a terrible accusation driven by agendas.I do not think he was a pederast. I base it on his interactions with other adult males and his love of the male body. Again, I am not imputing any sin to him.
Danzo Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Your failure to answer my CFR is a withdrawal of your CFR. Sorry, you lose. Making up rules as you go. If you can't show evidence, then stop making things up.
Danzo Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Your failure to answer my CFR is a withdrawal of your CFR. Sorry, you lose. We can deal with my statements later. You can use evidence other than what he said if you want. No need to use me as an excuse to make up things.
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Making up rules as you go. If you can't show evidence, then stop making things up.No, you made up the rules. You demanded I produce evidence that he had SSA and then included the caveat that only self-diagnosis was possible. I made a CFR that you would show that only self-diagnosis was acceptable. I am still waiting for you to do so. You made up a rule as part of your CFR and I CFR'd it and you seem unwilling to defend it so your CFR is automatically withdrawn. I don't make the rule.
KevinG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Your failure to answer my CFR is a withdrawal of your CFR. Sorry, you lose.I do not think he was a pederast. I base it on his interactions with other adult males and his love of the male body. Again, I am not imputing any sin to him. Thank you for clarifying. Too many people with anti-Scout agenda's have jumped to that conclusion. It is still a leap between admiration of the male form and same sex attraction.
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Thank you for clarifying. Too many people with anti-Scout agenda's have jumped to that conclusion. It is still a leap between admiration of the male form and same sex attraction.It might be a leap but it is a short leap. Other explanations are possible and I am not 100% sure but the evidence I have read seems strong to me.
Danzo Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 No, you made up the rules. You demanded I produce evidence that he had SSA and then included the caveat that only self-diagnosis was possible. I made a CFR that you would show that only self-diagnosis was acceptable. I am still waiting for you to do so. You made up a rule as part of your CFR and I CFR'd it and you seem unwilling to defend it so your CFR is automatically withdrawn. I don't make the rule. You still have presented no evidence. This not a baseball. Nobody wins or loses, you made an accusation that you could not back up. If you can back it up, share with us your knowledge instead of displaying your ignorance.
Danzo Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) evidence I have read seems strong to me.What evidence? Edited February 3, 2015 by Danzo
KevinG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) It might be a leap but it is a short leap. Other explanations are possible and I am not 100% sure but the evidence I have read seems strong to me. A short leap is still a leap. Unless you can provide the long lost journals of Baden Powell's male lovers, or some equally factual evidence, I'm not convinced the speculation is not agenda driven by those who are hellbent on having openly gay men in leadership positions with the BSA. For example. I love boys. I love my boys, and I love teaching other people's boys. They fascinate me. They energize me. They are men in waiting, with imagination, energy and potential. I love to teach them to camp, cook, burn things, cut things and shoot things... If anyone ever assumed out loud that I had a sexual attraction to boys I would join Elder Packer in punching them in the nose. Edited February 3, 2015 by KevinG 1
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 We can deal with my statements later. You can use evidence other than what he said if you want. No need to use me as an excuse to make up things.So your crazy caveat is withdrawn? Cool. Here is what I would put together as evidence.Okay, there is his fear of attractive women, his short-lived marriage, his cohabitation with male friends and a strong appreciation for the male form. Now, as Kevin pointed out, that is not conclusive as many men appreciat the human form but heterosexual men almost universally appreciate both genders in that case. There is no evidence he had any such fascination for the female form.
Danzo Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Unless you can provide the long lost journals of Baden Powell's male lovers, or some equally factual evidence, I'm not convinced the speculation is not agenda driven by those who are hellbent on having openly gay men in leadership positions with the BSA. He doesn't have evidence, I ask for some and he (for some explicable reason) wants to use me as an excuse for ignorance.
KevinG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) So your crazy caveat is withdrawn? Cool. Here is what I would put together as evidence.Okay, there is his fear of attractive women, his short-lived marriage, his cohabitation with male friends and a strong appreciation for the male form. Now, as Kevin pointed out, that is not conclusive as many men appreciat the human form but heterosexual men almost universally appreciate both genders in that case. There is no evidence he had any such fascination for the female form. You just described half the heterosexual men I know. Masculinity and sexuality are two separate spectra. Edited February 3, 2015 by KevinG 2
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 A short leap is still a leap. Unless you can provide the long lost journals of Baden Powell's male lovers, or some equally factual evidence, I'm not convinced the speculation is not agenda driven by those who are hellbent on having openly gay men in leadership positions with the BSA. For example. I love boys. I love my boys, and I love teaching other people's boys. They fascinate me. They energize me. They are men in waiting, with imagination, energy and potential. I love to teach them to camp, cook, burn things, cut things and shoot things... If anyone ever assumed out loud that I had a sexual attraction to boys I would join Elder Packer in punching them in the nose.The information was there before there was an agenda. And yeah, the only reason it is becoming commonly talked about now is because it is provocative. I do not see it as a gain for the gay agenda in general.In the same way I would be tempted to punch someone in the nose if they declared I was attracted to young girls. They are naming me a predator. If they suggested I was attracted to adult men that would be water off my back and worthy of an eye roll.
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 You just described half the heterosexual men I know. Masculinity and sexuality are two separate spectra.If I spent a lot of time admiring men at the gym and staring at and collecting pictures of men in masculine poses I would not be surprised if you judged that I deal with SSA. You would probably be right.
KevinG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 The information was there before there was an agenda. And yeah, the only reason it is becoming commonly talked about now is because it is provocative. I do not see it as a gain for the gay agenda in general.In the same way I would be tempted to punch someone in the nose if they declared I was attracted to young girls. They are naming me a predator. If they suggested I was attracted to adult men that would be water off my back and worthy of an eye roll. That's fine for you... (And I would also take offense at being accused of attraction to young girls). However - Baden Powell is dead. Baden Powell never wrote of a sexual attraction to males. We should probably let that speak for itself and not make 21st century assumptions about the intents of a 20th century man based on a few statements. While it was written before the agenda, certainly making assumptions is part of using those writings as part of an agenda. Tell you what. Publish those statements in context or link to them and we can have a substantive discussion about appropriate interpretation.
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 He doesn't have evidence, I ask for some and he (for some explicable reason) wants to use me as an excuse for ignorance.If the reason is explicable then why are you making a big deal about it.
Danzo Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 So your crazy caveat is withdrawn? Cool. Here is what I would put together as evidence.Okay, there is his fear of attractive women, his short-lived marriage, his cohabitation with male friends and a strong appreciation for the male form. Now, as Kevin pointed out, that is not conclusive as many men appreciat the human form but heterosexual men almost universally appreciate both genders in that case. There is no evidence he had any such fascination for the female form. He wouldn't have a fear of attractive women if he wasn't attracted to them. Appreciation of the male form, but not of the female form If he would have written extensively of the female form, in that era, no one would have let him near their children to start scouting. Living with male friends? That describes me during my mission and when I went to college. Kind of weak to make your accusation of "queerness" He did father children and he was married. Although not conclusive, it should count for evidence the other way.
KevinG Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) If I spent a lot of time admiring men at the gym and staring at and collecting pictures of men in masculine poses I would not be surprised if you judged that I deal with SSA. You would probably be right. Or you could be this guy... Edited February 3, 2015 by KevinG
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 That's fine for you... (And I would also take offense at being accused of attraction to young girls). However - Baden Powell is dead. Baden Powell never wrote of a sexual attraction to males. We should probably let that speak for itself and not make 21st century assumptions about the intents of a 20th century man based on a few statements. While it was written before the agenda, certainly making assumptions is part of using those writings as part of an agenda. Tell you what. Publish those statements in context or link to them and we can have a substantive discussion about appropriate interpretation.Reaching a conclusion does not make it automatically part of an agenda and I do oppose the agenda they are using it for.I will look for the book I read a few years back when I get home. I might still have it though I sold a lot of my books last time I moved to get back down to three bookcases. 1
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Or you could be this guy... Now that is an attractive man. 1
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 He wouldn't have a fear of attractive women if he wasn't attracted to them. Appreciation of the male form, but not of the female form If he would have written extensively of the female form, in that era, no one would have let him near their children to start scouting. Living with male friends? That describes me during my mission and when I went to college. Kind of weak to make your accusation of "queerness" He did father children and he was married. Although not conclusive, it should count for evidence the other way.So being afraid of something makes you attracted to it. Maybe the gay agenda is right and homophobes are all closeted gays?He did not write about the male form as such. He collected photos and that was the art he had. He lived in an era where an explicit interest in either gender's form was odd.Living with another man while an adult and not for any financial reasons is very different then an LDS mission or having college roommates. Not conclusive but indicative.He did marry but all indications are the marriage was not romantic and the marriage did not last.You can judge the evidence as weak if you wish. There is no set standard of proof in such historical inquiries but to me it seems pretty conclusive though I acknowledge I could be wrong.
Danzo Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Thank you nehor for giving your reasons for thinking Baden Powell "queer". I apologize for putting conditions on the CFR. Go ahead and give us whatever evidence you find. As to my earlier statement that homosexuality can only be self diagnosed, it seems that its very definition that sexual preference is something internal and not external. According to self identified homosexuals on this board itself, and others 1. Homosexual sex does not mean someone is homosexual 2. Heterosexual sex does not mean someone is heterosexual. Whether or not someone is homosexual or heterosexual is something that resides entirely in the mind of the person, therefore the only truly accurate diagnosis would be self diagnosis. Everything else would have to be circumstantial. (I know some here would object to me using the word "diagnosis", I know it can make it seem like its a disease or something, if anyone thinks of a better word, let me know).
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