Heartland Theory Question

[TheSkepticChristian]

Meldrum is someone who loves the data when it agrees with him and just ignores it when it doesn't

 

I think everyone is guilty of that, including me. 

[thesometimesaint]

I think that the Church's gospel topics essay on Book of Mormon DNA has opened up the option to take a non-literal view of the Book of Mormon history which really should encourage everyone to give each other that wiggle room that Smac mentioned.

 

Depends on how non-literal you want to make it. If it means you deny the Truth Claims of the Church. Then that is too much wiggle room for me, and presumably the Church.

[rockpond]

Depends on how non-literal you want to make it. If it means you deny the Truth Claims of the Church. Then that is too much wiggle room for me, and presumably the Church.

 

I dunno... you can read the DNA essay on the LDS.org gospel topics page and let me know how literal we are supposed to take the Book of Mormon in consideration of the points made there.

 

I'm also not sure how you can reconcile that essay with anything other than a limited geography perspective.  Just my thoughts, but since that essay is one of the few official documents from the Church on the subject, it seems like it ought to be considered.

[churchistrue]

I might be missing something on the Heartland theory, but it seems like the population issues would rule out Heartland region immediately.  Both Jaredites and Nephites/Lamanites were large civilizations with large cities and millions of people.  Isn't Mesoamerica pretty much the only fit just based on that alone?

[rockpond]

I might be missing something on the Heartland theory, but it seems like the population issues would rule out Heartland region immediately.  Both Jaredites and Nephites/Lamanites were large civilizations with large cities and millions of people.  Isn't Mesoamerica pretty much the only fit just based on that alone?

 

Haven't we ruled out the possibility that the Jaredites and Lehites were numbered in the millions with large cities?  That just doesn't seem to be possible given the data.

[Sevenbak]

Haven't we ruled out the possibility that the Jaredites and Lehites were numbered in the millions with large cities?  That just doesn't seem to be possible given the data.

I don't think Moroni or Ether would agree with your "data".

 

Ether 15:2  "He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children."

[TheSkepticChristian]

I don't think Moroni or Ether would agree with your "data".

 

Ether 15:2  "He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children."

 

If the Book of Mormon is true, that number has to be wrong. Perhaps a translation issue? 

[Sevenbak]

If the Book of Mormon is true, that number has to be wrong. Perhaps a translation issue? 

I understand Skeptic is your middle name and all, but I disagree.

[ksfisher]

If the Book of Mormon is true, that number has to be wrong. Perhaps a translation issue?

It would seem more likely to be a little hyperbole on the part of the original author. Either that or Ether took the time to personally ensure the count was accurate.

[TheSkepticChristian]

I understand Skeptic is your middle name and all, but I disagree.

 

Where is the evidence that a massive battle (2 Million) happened in Cumorah or Hill Vigia? 2 million is simply too big, that exceeds the number of deaths that resulted from the dropping of the atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. 

 

I never seen any evidence that for a 2 million battle, not even from the apologists. More importantly, I never seen any explanation for the lack of evidence. Brant doesn't believe in the 2 million number. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[rockpond]

I don't think Moroni or Ether would agree with your "data".

Ether 15:2 "He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children."

Have you read the Church's gospel topics essay on DNA and the Book of Mormon?

Millions of slain Nephites would imply millions of surviving Lamanites. Where did their DNA go?

[Sevenbak]

Where is the evidence that a massive battle (2 Million) happened in Cumorah or Hill Vigia? 2 million is simply too big, that exceeds the number of deaths that resulted from the dropping of the atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. 

 

I never seen any evidence that for a 2 million battle, not even from the apologists. More importantly, I never seen any explanation for the lack of evidence. Brant doesn't believe in the 2 million number. 

 

Skeptic, you need to read the Book of Ether, specifically Chapter 15 if you desire a real discussion on this issue.  These numbers of slain happened before Ramah (Not Cumorah, those are Nephites) in the great war leading up to the final battle.  This reference was long before they even got to the hill.

[Sevenbak]

Have you read the Church's gospel topics essay on DNA and the Book of Mormon?

Millions of slain Nephites would imply millions of surviving Lamanites. Where did their DNA go?

You might want to read the Book of Ether as well.  The Essay on DNA is about Nephites and Lamanites, not Jaredites.  You're 1000 years too late in your criticism.

[TheSkepticChristian]

 Ramah (Not Cumorah, those are Nephites

 

It is the same hill 

 

 This reference was long before they even got to the hill.

 

I do read the Book of Mormon, but I can't remember at the moment. Still, where is the evidence that 2 million Jaradites died in a battle? or why the lack of evidence? I have not seen an explanation by the apologists.  

 

You might want to read the Book of Ether as well.  The Essay on DNA is about Nephites and Lamanites, not Jaredites.  You're 1000 years too late in your criticism.

 

He was talking about the Lehites before you quoted Ether 15:2. It seems that you need to read the Book of Mormon too. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[PeterPear]

North American freshwater pearls known to exist among the Hopewell:

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/pearls/freshwater-pearls/north-american-pearl-mussel

4 Nephi 1:24

This site is selling a 12 Karat USA Pearl for $9,000. Purchase one to wear costly apparel like the Nephites of old.

http://www.karipearls.com

Tornadoes aka whirlwinds

The New Madrid Earthquake with its Earthquake Fog

The Hill Cumorah with the Gold Plates discovered in it

Joseph Smith encountered cement (JSH 1:24) and because cement only existed in Central America, the Prophet Moroni carried a bag of cement with him and the Gold Plates all the way from Mesoamerica

Hopewell were known to have houses covered with cement, and walls of timber covered with cement

Copper breastplates with pearls; textiles:

http://scienceviews.com/indian/seip_group.html

Headplates:

http://scienceviews.com/photo/library/SIA4199.html

Brant Gardner stated, to paraphrase, that places known to have cement are actually too dry, such as the Casa Grande ruins in Arizona, the First National Monument created by Teo. Roosevelt in the United Sates? The Grande House is made of caliche 5ft thick, three stories high. Brant Gardner knows little on the subject, apparently. Arizona is a wet place, ain't it? But the Casa Grande ruins are long after BofM timeframe. Anyone here ever try to dig a hole in caliche?

Edited September 30, 2015 by PeterPear

[Sevenbak]

He said we've ruled out the possibility of the Jaredites dying by the millions.  I'm not going to let that slide by as truth without a reply.

 

And no one said 2 million died "in a battle".  Ether is speaking of the war, and lamenting on how long it had lasted and how many had died.  You also have you remember that it was over a large area, with constant fleeing and many different battles.

 

If you're looking for "evidence" of a 2600 year old war, it's going to get tough, there won't be bodies.  But metal weapons do exist from the region and time period, they are scattered across Wisconson, Michigan, Ohio, New York, etc.,.  There's lots of examples of finds.  

 

Here's just one page with several.

http://copperculture.homestead.com/moreartifacts.html

 

 

 

ADDITION:  BTW, I am not a Heartland proponent.  I find that theory to be as new and flawed as the Meso only theory.   I am of the belief that the truth lies in the middle, and includes both.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Sevenbak

[TheSkepticChristian]

Tornadoes aka whirlwinds

The New Madrid Earthquake with its Earthquake Fog

The Hill Cumorah with the Gold Plates discovered in it

Joseph Smith encountered cement (JSH 1:24) and because cement only existed in Central America, the Prophet Moroni carried a bag of cement with him and the Gold Plates all the way from Mesoamerica

Hopewell were known to have houses covered with cement, and walls of timber covered with cement

Copper breastplates with pearls; textiles:

http://scienceviews.com/indian/seip_group.html

Headplates:

http://scienceviews.com/photo/library/SIA4199.html

Brant Gardner stated, to paraphrase, that places known to have cement are actually too dry, such as the Casa Grande ruins in Arizona, the First National Monument created by Teo. Roosevelt in the United Sates? The Grande House is made of caliche 5ft thick, three stories high. Brant Gardner knows little on the subject, apparently. Arizona is a wet place, ain't it? But the Casa Grande ruins are long after BofM timeframe. Anyone here ever try to dig a hole in caliche?

 

WOW impressive evidence, I was so blind, you just converted me to the Heartland geography. I now realize that scholars, scientists, and archaeologists are ignorant. The evidence is simply too impressive and clear, I will never question it. 

 

Please celebrate my conversion  

 

Edited September 30, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[PeterPear]

WOW impressive evidence, I was so blind, you just converted me to the Heartland geography. I now realize that scholars, scientists, and archaeologists are ignorant. The evidence is simply too impressive and clear, I will never question it. 

 

Please celebrate my conversion  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NNy289k6Oc

Congratulations. Except you forget, Dr. Sorenson has stated the Maya were not the Nephites. And evidence of Nephites has not been found in Mesoamerica. Nor has he convinced the academic world of it, which was his intent. The only evidence is speculative maps and numerous articles written by F.A.R.M.S. about the Maya.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Congratulations. Except you forget, Dr. Sorenson has stated the Maya were not the Nephites. And evidence of Nephites has not been found in Mesoamerica. Nor has he convinced the academic world of it, which was his intent. The only evidence is speculative maps and numerous articles written by F.A.R.M.S. about the Maya.

 

I am not a fan of Dr. Sorenson, but I like Brant he is better. I don't have a position about the Book of Mormon, but at least Mesoamerica geography has better arguments than the Heartland, and Mesoamerican  explains the lack of available evidence. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Anijen]

He said we've ruled out the possibility of the Jaredites dying by the millions.  I'm not going to let that slide by as truth without a reply.

 

And no one said 2 million died "in a battle".  Ether is speaking of the war, and lamenting on how long it had lasted and how many had died.  You also have you remember that it was over a large area, with constant fleeing and many different battles.

 

If you're looking for "evidence" of a 2600 year old war, it's going to get tough, there won't be bodies.  But metal weapons do exist from the region and time period, they are scattered across Wisconson, Michigan, Ohio, New York, etc.,.  There's lots of examples of finds.  

 

Here's just one page with several.

http://copperculture.homestead.com/moreartifacts.html

 

 

 

ADDITION:  BTW, I am not a Heartland proponent.  I find that theory to be as new and flawed as the Meso only theory.   I am of the belief that the truth lies in the middle, and includes both.

Nice find Sevenbak. I must also add that the number "millions" is way  to large for these copper findings. Although these copper artifacts show the ingenuity of the ancient inhabitants we must remember that these ancient people relied more on stone than on copper. Many of these are so few in number it has lead archaeologist to believe they were used in more of the everyday use of items, and ceremonial rituals. These photos of the copper artifacts expand over many years (sometimes a thousand years or more) and were collected over a large area. No where can this be proved that all these artifacts were used in a large war or a single battle. Copper like this, once it is hammered and annealed to a point, is too soft at the point to be used as a weapon for a long period of time. The points will blunt almost after the first use and the edges lose their sharpness. None of these copper artifacts were found in abundance at the same location and date to the same time.

 

In essence it is quite an awesome collection, because that is what it is, a collection made over time and over a large area. There is no evidence at all of their use for battles or war. There is even very little evidence they were used for hunting because after the first couple of uses they would need to reshape and resharpen the implements. It was more work and easier to use stone. I would be very reluctant to use them as any type of evidence that corroborates the people of the Book of Mormon unless I could show that they were used for war or even small battles, but there is none.

 

And most of all (this types automatically now) the population in the great lakes at the time of the Book of Mormon was not close to what we need to make it fit to the Book of Mormon. It would be like comparing the population of  Garden City, Utah (much less  than a 1000 people) when you need the population of the entire Salt Lake Valley.

 

I will save other reasons such as no writing system, no scarcity of lumber, the very cold winters, etc.. for another post. Once again as the non-professional anthropologist in me, I cant make that crucial nexus needed to make a serious hypo that the Great Lakes area was where the Book of Mormon happened. I am not saying it absolutely didn't happen there, nor am I saying it happened in Mesoamerica either, but the archaeological evidence of the Mesoamerica region will conform to the people of the Book of Mormon at a much higher (significantly higher) possibility than anywhere in the continental US.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Anijen

[churchistrue]

Can we get a list of all the translation errors or other times where the BOM text doesn't read literally in modern day English?  Would be good to have as a reference.  

[ERayR]

Congratulations. Except you forget, Dr. Sorenson has stated the Maya were not the Nephites. And evidence of Nephites has not been found in Mesoamerica. Nor has he convinced the academic world of it, which was his intent. The only evidence is speculative maps and numerous articles written by F.A.R.M.S. about the Maya.

 

By memory he said that the Maya was not the Nephites but the Nephites could have been and probably were Maya.

[rockpond]

You might want to read the Book of Ether as well.  The Essay on DNA is about Nephites and Lamanites, not Jaredites.  You're 1000 years too late in your criticism.

 

I'm not sure what your point is.  Isn't the Heartland theory about the Nephites & Lamanites?  I was referring to the church's DNA & Book of Mormon essay implying that there probably could not have been millions and millions of Nephites & Lamanites.

 

If the Jaredites completely died out then their DNA wouldn't still be around.  But, if there were millions of Jaredites, it seems highly improbable that they wouldn't have inter-married with the indigenous people of the Americas and their DNA would also still be around.  These are things I struggle with in reconciling what the Church has now said regarding DNA from the Book of Mormon peoples.

[PeterPear]

By memory he said that the Maya was not the Nephites but the Nephites could have been and probably were Maya.

 

Incorrect. From the "An Open Letter to Dr. Michael Coe"

-------------------

• “Every time you look at the illustrations in the popular edition of the Book of Mormon, you see that’s a Maya city.” [Part 1, 54:18]

What do popular illustrations have to do with actual history? And even then, how would you know that the illustrator had in mind a “Maya” city instead of merely a Mesoamerican city? There is too much gratuitous “Mayanization” going on throughout this entire discussion. The text’s “Nephites” were not Maya in all probability; the “Lamanites” may have been in part.

------------------

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/an-open-letter-to-dr-michael-coe/

[bold added for emphasis]

 

"There is too much gratuitous “Mayanization” going on"

"The text’s “Nephites” were not Maya in all probability"

 

The LGT Supporters can criticize a North America theory, while not even knowing what they support.

Edited October 1, 2015 by PeterPear

[TheSkepticChristian]

Incorrect. From the "An Open Letter to Dr. Michael Coe"

-------------------

• “Every time you look at the illustrations in the popular edition of the Book of Mormon, you see that’s a Maya city.” [Part 1, 54:18]

What do popular illustrations have to do with actual history? And even then, how would you know that the illustrator had in mind a “Maya” city instead of merely a Mesoamerican city? There is too much gratuitous “Mayanization” going on throughout this entire discussion. The text’s “Nephites” were not Maya in all probability; the “Lamanites” may have been in part.

------------------

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/an-open-letter-to-dr-michael-coe/

[bold added for emphasis]

 

"There is too much gratuitous “Mayanization” going on"

"The text’s “Nephites” were not Maya in all probability"

 

The LGT Supporters can criticize a North America theory, while not even knowing what they support.

 

There is no need to critizie the North America theory, it is obvious.

Edited October 3, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian