Flyonthewall Posted April 16, 2015 Posted April 16, 2015 Mosiah 3:5 makes it clear Jesus had no Father along with Hebrews 7:3Somebody better tell Jesus that because I think He doesn't know... He spent a lot of time and effort teaching about His Father...
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Somebody better tell Jesus that because I think He doesn't know... He spent a lot of time and effort teaching about His Father... No Father as Jehovah
Flyonthewall Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 No Father as Jehovah Then you do not believe Jesus was the Son of God as Jehova...?
smac97 Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) Wow. Long thread. I've skimmed through it only. Here are my two bits: My recollection is that Jesus Christ received the Melchizedek Priesthood on the Mount of Transfiguration. I looked around for the LDS source of this recollection and could not find it. However, I found this article appearing on page 103, volume II, No. 4 of "The Constributor," which was an independent but apparently kinda sorta quasi-official LDS publication from 1879 to 1896. The article, "Leaves from the Tree of Life," was published in January 1881 and was written by "C.W. Penrose," presumably Charles W. Penrose, who went on to become an apostle in 1904. So while it's not per se authoritative, I think it's a good place to start. Here's the excerpt (emphases added): John the Baptist held and administered in the Aaronic or lesser Priesthood, but Jesus received and acted in the Melchisedec or higher priesthood....Jesus did not take this authority upon himself although he was the Son of God. "He glorified not himself to be made an High Priest," but his Father called him, saying "Thou art a Priest forever, after the order of Melchisedec." Moses and Elijah held similar authority in their day and retained it when they left the sphere of mortality. And they came and administered in that Priesthood to Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. As the father called him, so called he the Apostles, and so, under divine direction, they called and ordained others....When there is no man living in the flesh, who holds this authority, its restoration can only be effected by the administration of heavenly beings who formerly held it on the earth. They can return when so permitted and instructed, as Moses and Elias did on the Mount. I also found this unattributed article, "The History of the Priesthood," published in "The True Latter Day Saints Herald," Vol. 5, pp. 70-71 (March 1864). This was an early RLDS periodical. Here are the key excerpts (emphases added): Christ frequently told the Jews that he received his authority from His Father, and that His Father sent Him. He is called the Everlasting Father, by Isaiah, that is, He is the Father of this earth, and of man; but is the Son of God and brother of man, in consequence of the flesh. "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3. Paul said that Christ "being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God," (Phil. 2:6,) nevertheless Peter said: "We have no followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eye-witnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father, honor and glory when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory: 'this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.' And this voice which came down from heaven we heard when we were with Him in the holy mount." 1 Peter 1:16-18. Now the question is, what was this honor and glory which Christ received in the holy mount? We infer that it was the honor and glory of an ordination to the high priesthood of the order of Melchisedek, for in Heb 5:1, we read that "every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God." As Christ was taken from among men to be an high priest, He was ordained to that office. We are also informed that "no man taketh this honor unto himself but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.(") So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made an high priest; but He that said unto Him 'thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten thee.'" 4, 5 v. It is here shown that every high priest (Christ not excepted) has to be called of God as was Aaron. Therefore we infer that when Christ received honor and glory from God the Father in the holy mount, He received an ordination to the high priesthood under the hands of Moses and Elias. In addition to Peter's account of the honor and glory which Christ received from God the Father in the holy mount, we have the following: "Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, 'this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.' And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, 'arise, and be not afraid.' And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, 'tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.'" Mat. 17:1-9. In this account we are informed that Jesus charged those three disciples to tell the vision to no man until the Son of man was risen from the dead; accordingly, after than event had transpired, Peter wrote the account which we have quoted. Peter's proposal to make three tabernacles seems to have been made by him because Moses was commanded to make a tabernacle in the wilderness, that the sacred ordinances might there be administered. We argue that Jesus was ordained to the holy priesthood while He was on the earth, for we discover that He could not fulfill all righteousness without being baptized, therefore He set an example to His followers. He said, "He that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice *** He goeth before them and the sheep follow him." John 10:2-4. Jesus led the way into the waters of baptism, and His sheep follow Him. He is the Shepherd of the sheep. Both by example and by His teaching He pointed out the way of salvation, therefore His disciples are His followers. See 1 Thes. 1:6. Although He thought it no robbery to be equal with God, yet He suffered "the porter," (John the Baptist) to open the door of the kingdom unto Him, by being baptized by which all His followers enter. It would therefore be inconsistent with this fact to suppose that He would not be ordained as His apostles were ordained. In defence of this idea we will quote His own words. He said unto the twelve, "as my Father had sent me, even so send I you." John 20:21. How did He send them? "Jesus ordained twelve to be with Him." Mark 3:14. Jesus also said, "I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit." John 15:16. These passages, collectively, show how Christ and His apostles were sent, and that they were all ordained in like manner. This sounds pretty sensible to me. Of course, this is not an LDS publication, so it is not an authoritative statement of LDS doctrine. But I think it at least reflects some early LDS thought on this subject (due to its general correlation with the above article by Charles Penrose). I'll see if I can find more authoritative sources. Thanks, -Smac Edited April 17, 2015 by smac97 2
JLHPROF Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) My recollection is that Jesus Christ received the Melchizedek Priesthood on the Mount of Transfiguration. I looked around for the LDS source of this recollection and could not find it. This sounds pretty sensible to me. Of course, this is not an LDS publication, so it is not an authoritative statement of LDS doctrine. But I think it at least reflects some early LDS thought on this subject (due to its general correlation with the above article by Charles Penrose). You and I don't always (or often) agree, but I like this post. I'm not sure I 100% agree with the conclusions, but I do believe Christ received the sealing keys from Moses & Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, just as Joseph Smith did in the Kirtland Temple. He then bestowed them on Peter, James, and John. I also see no reason Christ couldn't have been ordained to the Aaronic priesthood by either John the Baptist or Zacharias, although I don't know that that was necessary if the speculation regarding the three wise men turns out to be true. John the Baptist was ordained by an angel to the keys of Elias at eight days old. D&C 84:28.Perhaps Christ was also ordained as an infant by the three kings from the east... Ah, I love me a little speculation... Edited April 17, 2015 by JLHPROF
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Then you do not believe Jesus was the Son of God as Jehova...? I believe Mosiah 15 3 and the Son, because of the flesh;
smac97 Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 You and I don't always (or often) agree, but I like this post. I'm not sure I 100% agree with the conclusions, but I do believe Christ received the sealing keys from Moses & Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, just as Joseph Smith did in the Kirtland Temple. He then bestowed them on Peter, James, and John. I also see no reason Christ couldn't have been ordained to the Aaronic priesthood by either John the Baptist or Zacharias, although I don't know that that was necessary if the speculation regarding the three wise men turns out to be true. John the Baptist was ordained by an angel to the keys of Elias at eight days old. D&C 84:28.Perhaps Christ was also ordained as an infant by the three kings from the east... Ah, I love me a little speculation... The nice thing about speculation is that any conclusions we draw from it are soft and malleable, even susceptible to being tossed entirely aside. Indeed, we could say that speculation on a given matter does not yield any "conclusions" at all, and is instead an end unto itself until and unless we receive further light and knowledge from God about the matter. Thanks, -Smac
JLHPROF Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 (edited) The nice thing about speculation is that any conclusions we draw from it are soft and malleable, even susceptible to being tossed entirely aside. Indeed, we could say that speculation on a given matter does not yield any "conclusions" at all, and is instead an end unto itself until and unless we receive further light and knowledge from God about the matter. Thanks, -Smac Completely agreed.Sometimes my tendency is to accept the "best speculation by an authoritative source" until further light and knowledge is revealed. Sometimes that works out well. Sometimes less well. Edited April 17, 2015 by JLHPROF
Vance Posted April 18, 2015 Posted April 18, 2015 (edited) Mosiah 3:5 makes it clear Jesus had no Father along with Hebrews 7:3 Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. So, Mary wasn't his mother, because he didn't have one, nor did he die because he had no end of life. It follows that he wasn't resurrected either. Your interpretation fundamentally changes things in ways you did not anticipate when you fabricated it. Edited April 18, 2015 by Vance
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