Can The Greater Good Overcome The Truth?

[LOSTONE]

Is there ever a situation where the ‘greater good’ causes the truth to be denied or excluded? Has this happen before in the history of a faith? Should it ever happen?

[Guest]

Is there ever a situation where the ‘greater good’ causes the truth to be denied or excluded? Has this happen before in the history of a faith? Should it ever happen?

Greater good and truth are never at odds.

[LOSTONE]

What about a lie to protect the innocent of another? Wouldn’t that be the greater good overcoming the truth?

[Uncle Dale]

Is there ever a situation where the ‘greater good’ causes the truth to be denied or excluded? Has this happen before in the history of a faith? Should it ever happen?

I'll give you one possible example.

During the WW2 Japanese occupation of Guam, a village

elder confessed to stealing from the troops' supplies and

was executed. He was innocent of the act, but the

natives of his village would have been been killed

"to set an example" by the commander of the troops,

had not somebody confessed to the ongoing thefts.

I was told that the man was excommunicated posthumously

from the Catholic Church, after the war was over -- not for

lying, which is a lesser sin, but for essentially committing

suicide (in order to save his fellow villagers).

If that story is authentic, then it might be a case in

which controverting the "truth" was for the greater good.

Only one man had to die, instead of many.

UD

[ERayR]

If you don't like your wife's new dress or hair do do you tell her it is awful?

[thesometimesaint]

Do what you must, and be willing to pay the price.

[Guest]

If you don't like your wife's new dress or hair do do you tell her it is awful?

That is just self preservation.

[Calm]

Yes,be ause it is much more unkind to allow her to suffer embarrassment and other cruelties just because you didn't want the momentary unpleasantness for yourself.

Do you love her? Does she care she looks nice and not draw weird looks and such? I though guys were supposed to protect their loved ones...and a little discomfort at you end to save her a nasty blow to the self esteem...surely none of you really have wo der what to say.

[intra]

don't some of you admit that the artifact Joseph Smith "translated" the book of Abraham from was in fact a common Egyptian burial scroll and that it's actual inscriptions bear no resemblance whatsoever to the text that he arrived at? 

and justify this saying that God purposefully deceived Him with the physical  object, so that he could receive and give a book by spirit? 

i.e. the truth (that he had in his possession a common pagan document, not the work of Abraham) was overshadowed for the greater good (that the book of Abraham be written, and you could have faith instead of evidence) ? 

this reasoning i found in Mormon apologetics resources; it's not baseless slander as some others of you will think. 



 

[intra]

don't you also believe, that although it's written in Isaiah dozens of times that God is one God, and there are no other Gods but Him, that this is "poetic license" and stated this way so that Israel would not worship other gods? 

that is, don't you believe that the Father is one of many gods - but for the greater good (that Israel should worship none but Him) the truth (that the Father is neither god from everlasting to everlasting, or that He is the only god that is) was overshadowed? 

this is the argument LDS gives me when i show them how Israel's prophets say so many times that there is only one God; not baseless slander. 
 

[intra]

haven't many of you reprimanded me for praising God because "this is a place for discussion, not worship" ? 

so the greater good (that people can argue and discuss) overshadows the truth (that God is great and worthy of praise) ? 

[intra]

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 
(Romans 9:22-24) 

is the blinding of Israel to the truth of the Messiah, for the greater good that the Gentiles could be grafted in and receive His grace, an example of the truth being overshadowed for the sake of the greater good? 

[intra]

even Christ, crucified for the sin of the world -- isn't this a greater good?
but in order that He would be taken of them and handed over to be killed, the Truth of Him was overshadowed by the sin of the people, so they rejected Him in order that we might be received. 

is this like what you ask in the OP? 

[Guest]

even Christ, crucified for the sin of the world -- isn't this a greater good?

but in order that He would be taken of them and handed over to be killed, the Truth of Him was overshadowed by the sin of the people, so they rejected Him in order that we might be received. 

is this like what you ask in the OP? 

Will you please stop this rambling and anti-Mormon nonsense! Stop trying to use every thread as a pulpit to preach. If you want to say something say in in one post, make sure it makes sense and move on. In short, be a part or be apart.

[Calm]

Social is not for debate, if you want to keep telling us where we went wrong, stick to the main forum

[intra]

Social is not for debate, if you want to keep telling us where we went wrong, stick to the main forum

i'm asking questions, and your making accusations. 

which is the appropriate forum to ask questions? 

which is the appropriate forum to make accusations? 

please stick to the OP topic. 

these things i pointed out and asked, are they in agreement with the OP topic? 

if you don't have answers or food for thought, don't bother commenting. 

thanks. 

 

[intra]

Will you please stop this rambling and anti-Mormon nonsense! Stop trying to use every thread as a pulpit to preach. If you want to say something say in in one post, make sure it makes sense and move on. In short, be a part or be apart.

please stop making every thread a place to make personal comments about other members, and stick to the thread topic. 

thanks. 

[Uncle Dale]

don't some of you admit that the artifact Joseph Smith "translated" the book of Abraham from was in fact a common Egyptian burial scroll and that it's actual inscriptions bear no resemblance whatsoever to the text that he arrived at? 

...

 

 

Actually, the Reorganized LDS never canonized the book as latter day scripture

and, after a couple of years' consideration, they (and their successors in the

Community of Christ) pretty much ignored the book altogether.

 

Those who thus tacitly  "admitted" that the ancient writings were not the work of

Father Abraham, included Emma Hale Smith (who received the mummies and

writings from Mother Smith) and William Smith, younger brother of Joseph, both

of whom eventually ended up in the late 1850s "Reorganization." William pawned

the mummies and texts for a mere pittance at St. Louis -- when the sale of real

documents originating with Abraham could have been sold for millions of dollars.

 

Joseph Smith III and other members of the family recalled seeing the papyrus

artifacts in Mother Smith's storage cabinet at Nauvoo, but (after 1844 at least)

never referred to them as Abraham's writings, nor as ancient writings which

somehow preserved (or inspired the preservation of) an authentic account

originating with Abraham.

 

None of which kept the "Josephites" from professing that they were indeed the

"One True Church," etc. As late as the 1890s a surviving sister of Joseph, who

became a Reorganized Saint, was testifying to the visits of Moroni to the Smith

family cabin at Manchester, and to miraculous visitations of the same (?) angel in

her own life, complete with Divine commandments to the Latter Day Saints. Had

this same Sister Katherine Smith Salisbury been handed a Brighamite PGP,

she would have, no doubt, consigned it to the rubbish heap.

 

So -- simply acknowledging that the Egyptian texts, published in the Nauvoo 

"Times and Seasons" were not an authentic  "Book of Abraham" in no way

hindered my ancestral family, and their co-religionists in Iowa or Missouri.

 

What was a hindrance? -- The falsehoods so often professed, testifying to the

fact (?) that polygamy was not a practice among the Saints at Nauvoo, and that

even the topmost leaders (such as John Taylor, during his mission to France)

swore that the Mormons were limited to one wife by the Doctrine & Covenants

itself. Why was that a hindrance?

 

Because those false testimonies led to the founding of the Reorganized Church.

Had Sister Emma stepped forth, at Amboy, Illinois, on April 6th, 1860, and admitted

her late husband's polygamy, the "Josephites" would have never formed their church.

 

Was that bypassing of the "Truth" an instance of establishing "The Greater Good?"

 

Leaders in today's Community of Christ evidently believe that was the case.

 

President Brigham Young, referring to Emma and her "lies" during the 1860s, did not.

 

UD

Edited January 5, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[intra]

thanks for the explanation Uncle Dale. 

[Guest]

please stop making every thread a place to make personal comments about other members, and stick to the thread topic. 

thanks.

If I were doing this in every thread, I would, I am trying to help by pointing out things that will get your threads closed. But I'm done.

[Brent Sohlden]

Greater good and truth are never at odds.

Amen PaPa

[Brent Sohlden]

I was told that the man was excommunicated posthumously

from the Catholic Church, after the war was over -- not for

lying, which is a lesser sin, but for essentially committing

suicide (in order to save his fellow villagers).

If that story is authentic, then it might be a case in

which controverting the "truth" was for the greater good.

Only one man had to die, instead of many.

UD

True but the truth was in the act of laying down his life for his friends so it still prevailed and wasnt at odds with the greater good.  But that is just my opinion.  I could be wrong.

[Calm]

i'm asking questions, and your making accusations. 

which is the appropriate forum to ask questions? 

which is the appropriate forum to make accusations? 

please stick to the OP topic. 

these things i pointed out and asked, are they in agreement with the OP topic? 

if you don't have answers or food for thought, don't bother commenting. 

thanks. 

read the rules, this part of the board is not for debate, you can get banned, social hall is for socialising.

[Chronos]

Intra, this is your only warning. Social Hall is not meant for debate, if you want to debate please go to the General Discussions section.

 

~Chronos

[Tacenda]

I'm constantly going over this topic in my mind, that the church not being true as in it really isn't the only right church IMO, isn't what matters, but that it is a good way to live is "the greater good".  Of course only for those that it is a good way to live, for I know that for many it isn't.  Which, IMO, some of the church leaders go by, thinking whether true or not, it's a good way to live.  Does this even make sense?  Anyway, that's my thoughts about this and I think it's what the OP may be about, or is it Lostone?  Hope you're doing well!