Our Church Cares About The Trees

[thesometimesaint]

I do not agree with the comparision that those who do not believe in Global Warming are akin to the Moon Landing deniers. Shall we pull out Godwin's law while we are at it?

 

It is my opinion that Al Gore, and his minons of Climate Change Lemmings have not made a convincing case. They resort to insults, such as the one above about the moon landing, and sensational claims (Arctic Ice Free by 2013) , which end up landing on their face. Those kind of things are not science.

 

The data does not support the conclusions.

 

Disagree all you want. However facts are stubborn things. Godwin's Law is in specific reference to Hitler and his murderous rule over Germany in the 20th Century. Further even broadening the concept to include others of ill repute is a misuse of the term.

 

I've never claimed Al Gore is a scientist, or that his opinions of the facts have any bearing on the facts. Climate Change due to additional CO2 has been a topic for science from at least the 1800's. Long before Al Gore or any of the modern day scientists were even born.

 

Here is what the Admiral Locklear had to say about Global Warming

SEE http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/03/09/admiral-samuel-locklear-commander-pacific-forces-warns-that-climate-change-top-threat/BHdPVCLrWEMxRe9IXJZcHL/story.html

 

Here is what another Admiral had to say on Global Warming.

SEE http://earththeoperatorsmanual.com/main-video/how-to-talk-to-an-ostrich

 

As to an ice free Arctic

SEE http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/dec/09/us-navy-arctic-sea-ice-2016-melt

[thesometimesaint]

The so called "Facts" of Global warming are indeed based on models and projection. The observed temperature record does not show any warming since 1998.

 

The image is very large, or I would have posted it, as an Image. However, since this has nothing to do with the Church, I am going to leave this thread, as I feel it has been derailed.

 

Incorrect.

SEE http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-stopped-in-1998.htm

 

The original OP started with the claim that "I have been asked to represent The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this symposium on faith and the environment...In the Book of Mormon, it is prophesied that in the latter-days there would be “fires, tempests, and vapors of smoke…and…great pollutions upon the face of the earth,”...The LDS Church wants to be good stewards of the environment, conserve energy and water resources, minimize pollution, create and maintain cost effective properties and be a good neighbor" - Elder Marcus B. Nash

 

If you refuse to keep up then by all means exit the discussion.

[ELF1024]

Incorrect.

SEE http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-stopped-in-1998.htm

 

The original OP started with the claim that "I have been asked to represent The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this symposium on faith and the environment...In the Book of Mormon, it is prophesied that in the latter-days there would be “fires, tempests, and vapors of smoke…and…great pollutions upon the face of the earth,”...The LDS Church wants to be good stewards of the environment, conserve energy and water resources, minimize pollution, create and maintain cost effective properties and be a good neighbor" - Elder Marcus B. Nash

 

If you refuse to keep up then by all means exit the discussion.

 

None of which have anything to do with the lie that is Global Warming/Climate Change/Climate Disruption, or whatever you choose to call it this week.

[thesometimesaint]

None of which have anything to do with the lie that is Global Warming/Climate Change/Climate Disruption, or whatever you choose to call it this week.

 

CFR.

[ELF1024]

CFR.

 

Could you be a bit more specific on that which you are requesting a reference on...

[ELF1024]

Taking a wild stab...

 

Fires, Vapors of Smoke:

*Climate Change not the MAIN cause of Wildfires

 

Tempests:
Tornadoes: "Similar to 2012, tornado activity across the U.S. during 2013 was below average."

Hurricanes: "The 2013 Atlantic hurricane season was the least active in thirty years."

 

Tornadoes: Under 350ppm of CO2

Hurricanes: 8 of 10 Costliest under 350ppm

 

Great Pollutions:

If you are convinced that CO2 is a pollutant... I suggest you stop breathing, since you are part of the problem.

 

Furthermore, we have had ice ages at far higher levels of CO2 than we have now.

 

Greening of the Earth due to higher PPM of CO2.

 

Oh, and that West Antarctic Ice Sheet that was in the news... it's melting because of GeoThermal, not Climate Change.

 

*title of the article changed to reflect that it is not the MAIN cause, but may be a cause

Edited July 1, 2014 by ELF1024

[thesometimesaint]

Taking a wild stab...

 

Fires, Vapors of Smoke:

Climate Change not the cause of Wildfires

 

Temptests:

Tornadoes: "Similar to 2012, tornado activity across the U.S. during 2013 was below average."

Hurricanes: "The 2013 Atlantic hurricane season was the least active in thirty years."

 

Great Pollutions:

If you are convinced that CO2 is a pollutant... I suggest you stop breathing, since you are part of the problem.

 

Furthermore, we have had ice ages at far higher levels of CO2 than we have now.

 

There has long been a debate over which is the best way to control the two significant types forest based wild fires.

The first type is the low burning brush and shrub fires of the floor fires. Long term studies do show that such fires are indispensable for certain types of Conifer trees to open and release their seeds.

The other type of fire is the Crown Fire. Those fires are much hotter and leap from tree to trees burning from the top down. Thus destroying any chance for that tree to produce seed.

 

Global Warming increases the amount of dead undergrowth and dead trees that fuel both types of fires.

 

What Global Warming does predict is bigger tornadoes and more powerful effects of hurricanes. Both of which we saw world wide in 2013. More tornadoes and more hurricanes may or may not be a side benefit.

 

So your of the Michele Bachmann School of Science. BTW All animals, include you, can't use the CO2 our bodies produce by the burning of fuel also know as food.

 

I've never claimed to be not part of the problem. For better or worse mankind is also the solution to the problem, and my dying won't solve the problem.

 

Without CO2 this planet would be an ice cube. Further the excessive CO2 we're pumping into our air is caused polar melt.

http://www.neaq.org/conservation_and_research/climate_change/climate_change_and_the_oceans.php

[ELF1024]

Without CO2 this planet would be an ice cube. Further the excessive CO2 we're pumping into our air is caused polar melt.

 

And once again, We've had Ice Ages at several thousand PPM of CO2... (see reference above)

 

Tell me more about that polar melt...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The facts of Global Warming are not based on models.

Actually they are. It was projected that "such and such is going to happen" The only problem is that it didn't happen. Rofl.

[Zakuska]

Repeating myself for the 3rd time.

The Antarctic is also increasing in heat

False statement.

CO2 traps heat.

True statement.

The poles are getting warmer.

False statement again.

The facts are pretty clear about the warming at both poles and its effect on ice coverage. The Russians have figured that out and are already working on a fleet for the Arctic Sea. The one we should be worried about, however, is the ice coverage over Antarctica because it like the loss of the ice coverage on Greenland has the potential to raise sea levels.

Another false statement.

Greenland has been trending colder for the past 3000+ years.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b349nbbq0xbcchf/GISP_to_11Kybp_trend.gif

Antartica is colder today than it was 8,000 years ago and trends downward as well.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cc4g44xlfeqycre/Vostok_to_10Kybp_trend.gif

As anounced Sunday, Antartic sea Ice hit record levels on Saturday.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qztjbdyl1hm6vi3/00sea_ice_nsidc_SeaIce.JPG

Article here:

http://www.reportingclimatescience.com/news-stories/article/antarctic-sea-ice-hits-a-new-record-extent.html

I wish people would address the data rather than copy and paste false statements. (Or appocalyptic literature )

Two questions

Name one climate scientist that doesn't believe the Earth is getting Warmer?

Don't need to. Someone already named 3. What I've been seeing is more and more climatologists freaking out over the Polar anomaly's that weren't suposed to be there according to their Global "warming" models yet are. (Mola Rom Suda Rom )

Why is the church making solar power meeting houses? How does that benefit the environment?

They already answered that themselves, "to be responsible stewards over the environment". Edited July 2, 2014 by Zakuska

[MormonFreeThinker]

 

 

Don't need to. Someone already named 3. 

 

and they are?  Read my response below. 

Edited July 1, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[MormonFreeThinker]

1. Joe Bastardi, Chief Hurricane and Long-range Meteorologist

2. Dr. Roy Spencer, Climatologist past senior scientist for climate studies at NASA

3. Dr. Will Harper, Princeton University

 

1. Bastardi is a Meteologist, not a climate scientist. 

2. Spencer does believe the Earth is getting warmer, but he thinks the cause is natural.  Re-read my question 

3. Harpper is a physicist, not a climatologist. 

 

Name one climate scientist that doesn't believe the Earth is getting warmer. The only climate scientist you mentioned does believe the Earth is getting warmer. 

Edited July 1, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Zakuska]

Dr. Richard Keen

“Earth has cooled since 1998 in defiance of the predictions by the UN-IPCC.”

“The global temperature for 2007 was the coldest in a decade.”

Dr. Oliver W. Frauenfield

Nir Joseph Shaviv

[thesometimesaint]

The Antarctic is warming up, and CO2 is responsible.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/17/climate-change-antarctica-glaciers-melting-global-warming-nasa

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/24/science/earth/west-antarctica-warming-faster-than-thought-study-finds.html?_r=0

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/global-warming-slows-antarcticas-coldest-currents/

https://www.google.com/search?q=antarctic+warming+up&client=firefox-a&hs=xip&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=flWzU6HTM871oAS84oFY&ved=0CFAQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=579#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=TZxshwXvvsqbPM%253A%3B9ZSmG3OfwnbjZM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftallbloke.files.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F10%252Fantarctica_temp_trends3.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftallbloke.wordpress.com%252F2012%252F10%252F21%252Froger-andrews-how-nasa-giss-manufactures-warming-in-the-antarctic%252F%3B886%3B617

Edited July 2, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Zakuska]

The Antarctic is warming up, and CO2 is responsible.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/17/climate-change-antarctica-glaciers-melting-global-warming-nasa

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/24/science/earth/west-antarctica-warming-faster-than-thought-study-finds.html?_r=0

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/global-warming-slows-antarcticas-coldest-currents/

https://www.google.com/search?q=antarctic+warming+up&client=firefox-a&hs=xip&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=flWzU6HTM871oAS84oFY&ved=0CFAQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=579#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=TZxshwXvvsqbPM%3A%3B9ZSmG3OfwnbjZM%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Ftallbloke.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F10%2Fantarctica_temp_trends3.png%3Bhttp%3A%2F%2Ftallbloke.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F10%2F21%2Froger-andrews-how-nasa-giss-manufactures-warming-in-the-antarctic%2F%3B886%3B617

And once again TSS fails to address the data... picks a single data point... and posts links to apocalyptic literture instead.

You are right Mola, it is like pounding your head against a brick wall.

Intresting your last link on images brings up a blog that documents how Nasa baked the numbers and manufactured Antartic warming.

doh!

http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/roger-andrews-how-nasa-giss-manufactures-warming-in-the-antarctic/

Edited July 2, 2014 by Zakuska

[ERayR]

1. Bastardi is a Meteologist, not a climate scientist. 

2. Spencer does believe the Earth is getting warmer, but he thinks the cause is natural.  Re-read my question 

3. Harpper is a physicist, not a climatologist. 

 

Name one climate scientist that doesn't believe the Earth is getting warmer. The only climate scientist you mentioned does believe the Earth is getting warmer. 

 

I hate to say it but here it goes I TOLD YOU SO!!!  SOP

[The Nehor]

I'll start buying into Global Warming when they fix the models to where they can accurately repoduce past events. At this time, they cannot do that. They are in no way certified models. They do not agree with each other, and do not model what is currently happening accurately.

 

Until such time, first rule of programming... Garbage In, Garbage Out.

 

And because we cannot model something accurately because it is too complex to create a perfect model we can safely ignore it until we do. Like in war. Until we can completely model the effectiveness of enemy troops we should do nothing because we cannot conclusively prove that they can or will harm us.

[Anijen]

1. Bastardi is a Meteologist, not a climate scientist. 

A meteorologist is a climatologist that is what they do. You can label them other things as well, but doesn't change the fact.

 

 

 

Name one climate scientist that doesn't believe the Earth is getting warmer. The only climate scientist you mentioned does believe the Earth is getting warmer. 

 

Have you stopped beating your wife?

[MormonFreeThinker]

 

A meteorologist is a climatologist that is what they do. You can label them other things as well, but doesn't change the fact.

 

 

 

No, a meteorologist is not a climatologist. Just like a medical doctor is not a Biologist. 

 

Climatology treats the same atmospheric processes as meteorology, but it seeks as well to identify the slower-acting influences and longer-term changes of import, including the circulation of the oceans and the small yet measurable variations in the intensity of solar radiation. Do you know the difference between weather and climate?

 

Now, Dr. Roy Spencer is the only climate scientist you mentioned, and he believes that the Earth is getting warmer,but he thinks that humans are not the cause. 

 

So why can't you name just one climate scientist that doesn't believe the Earth is getting warmer?

Edited July 2, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[thesometimesaint]

Really? After all I have posted including my personal statements that are anything but apocalyptic that is the best you can do? Man made Global Warning is simply a problem to be solved. It requires patience, good factual information, and determined actions by us all to solve. We don't need wild eyed fanatics on either extreme lulling us into a false sense of passive security or scaring us into hasty actions that cost money and don't address the problem. IE; Here is a good solution to part of the problem. The Environmental Protection Agency reports that if every household in the United States replaced just one standard incandescent light bulb with an energy-efficient one, the nation would annually save about $600 million in energy costs --- enough to power 3 million homes for a year.

SEE http://homeguides.sfgate.com/much-energy-efficient-bulbs-save-78814.html

 

The temperature graph is good. Virtually the entire scientific community is in agreement  that temperatures have risen since the Industrial Revolution at an unsustainable rate, including the Antarctic. Which BTW includes 1900. The injection of calls for conspiracy on the part of NASA GISS are bad and not born out of any facts.

SEE http://climatecrocks.com/2011/10/25/bad-badder-best-the-video-is-here/

Edited July 2, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

MormonFreeThinker:

 

Here is the simplest way to tell the difference weather and climate. The clothes on your back are determine by the weather. While the clothes in your closet are determined by the climate. Or you could

But I don't recommend it.

[ELF1024]

And because we cannot model something accurately because it is too complex to create a perfect model we can safely ignore it until we do. Like in war. Until we can completely model the effectiveness of enemy troops we should do nothing because we cannot conclusively prove that they can or will harm us.

 

Science is test-able, it's re-create-able. The models do not correspond to the actual temperature readings, and they cannot re-create past events. Therefore, the models are folly at best, and criminal at worst. You don't change the economy of the entire planet based on the made up numbers of people who will not release the raw data.

 

If there was a serious problem, they would be releasing the data, and they would be working to create certified models that will re-create past events.

 

What you are saying is akin to "Just because we can't re-create Cold Fusion doesn't mean we shouldn't be spending billions of dollars to create reactors that we can't prove will work...."

 

If, you buy into the nonsense that is Global Warming; then new climate measures the EPA just implemented will prevent warming of a 0.05 of a degree (over a century), and that's providing China doesn't ramp up more power plants. Also Europe is abandoning many of it's climate ventures because they are killing the economies and have raised energy prices to the point where people cannot afford it.

Edited July 2, 2014 by ELF1024

[The Nehor]

Science is test-able, it's re-create-able. The models do not correspond to the actual temperature readings, and they cannot re-create past events. Therefore, the models are folly at best, and criminal at worst. You don't change the economy of the entire planet based on the made up numbers of people who will not release the raw data.

 

If there was a serious problem, they would be releasing the data, and they would be working to create certified models that will re-create past events.

 

What you are saying is akin to "Just because we can't re-create Cold Fusion doesn't mean we shouldn't be spending billions of dollars to create reactors that we can't prove will work...."

 

If, you buy into the nonsense that is Global Warming; then new climate measures the EPA just implemented will prevent warming of a 0.05 of a degree (over a century), and that's providing China doesn't ramp up more power plants. Also Europe is abandoning many of it's climate ventures because they are killing the economies and have raised energy prices to the point where people cannot afford it.

"Certified models"? What is that? You are just making things up.

Yeah, the EPA changes are anemic and many nations cannot sustain serious cutbacks. There is no easy solution or the political will to take difficult steps. The idea the the problem must not be serious or we would do something about it is silly. It is too,late to avoid. We have to prepare to weather it and mitigate what we can. It probably won't wipe out the human race but it will lead to some interesting times.

The idea that it is a conspiracy is stupid. Follow the money. The people who stand to lose are the climate change deniers if it turns out to be real.

[Zakuska]

Really? After all I have posted including my personal statements that are anything but apocalyptic that is the best you can do? Man made Global Warning is simply a problem to be solved. It requires patience, good factual information, and determined actions by us all to solve. We don't need wild eyed fanatics on either extreme lulling us into a false sense of passive security or scaring us into hasty actions that cost money and don't address the problem. IE; Here is a good solution to part of the problem. The Environmental Protection Agency reports that if every household in the United States replaced just one standard incandescent light bulb with an energy-efficient one, the nation would annually save about $600 million in energy costs --- enough to power 3 million homes for a year.

SEE http://homeguides.sfgate.com/much-energy-efficient-bulbs-save-78814.html

The temperature graph is good. Virtually the entire scientific community is in agreement that temperatures have risen since the Industrial Revolution at an unsustainable rate, including the Antarctic. Which BTW includes 1900. The injection of calls for conspiracy on the part of NASA GISS are bad and not born out of any facts.

SEE http://climatecrocks.com/2011/10/25/bad-badder-best-the-video-is-here/

So then do you agree or disagree that Greenland has been trending colder from 3100 bp to say 300 years ago?

Do you agree or disagree that. antartica has been trending colder from 8000 years ago to 300 years ago?

Once you answer that we can continue.

Ps. The minute your first link started talking about a chunk of ice raising sea levels to biblical proportions it became apocolypic literature.

Pss. You are arguing out of both sides of your mouth. You have said repeatedly that CO2 retains heat. which is true. Then you said too much CO2 and the earths an icebox. So if man has released so much CO2 into the atmosphere and recked the environment we should be in an ice age right now.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Zakuska

[MormonFreeThinker]

Read below

Edited July 2, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker