Interesting Find For Theories Of Indian Origins And Preadamites

[Helen47]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-05-16/13000-year-old-skeleton-found-in-mexican-cave/5456472

 

 

"mitochondrial DNA, passed down from mother to child, extracted from the girl's wisdom tooth showed she belonged to an Asian-derived genetic lineage shared only by today's Native Americans.

[Tiki]

"Scientists exploring deep beneath the jungles of Mexico's eastern Yucatán peninsula discovered the girl's remains underwater alongside bones of more than two dozen beasts, including sabre-toothed tigers, cave bears, giant ground sloths and an elephant relative called a gomphothere."

She obviously lived in a cave with sabre-toothed tigers, cave bears, giant ground sloths and a long-nosed gomphothere. This is why she was dated so old.

Or maybe her bones got washed into the cave - which scientists never seem to consider. But since she cuddled with giant ground sloths and other friendly now extinct beasts in her daily cave dwelling, she's obviously as old as they are.

[Calm]

Or maybe her bones got washed into the cave - which scientists never seem to consider. But since she cuddled with giant ground sloths and other friendly now extinct beasts in her daily cave dwelling, she's obviously as old as they are.

If you mean long after she died, surely they would be able to tell because it would be unlikely the bones would be grouped together since the remains would fall apart when moved from the original site.

Besides they don't claim she lived there:

"She may have ventured into dark passages of a cave to find fresh water and fallen to her death into what archaeologist James Chatters of the firm of Applied Paleoscience, one of the leaders of the study, called an "inescapable trap" 30 metres deep - a bell-shaped pit dubbed Hoyo Negro, "black hole" in Spanish."

Edited May 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/the-norse-an-arctic-mystery

 

This Dr. lady got the boot for discovering things that don't add up to the prevailing theory, sad

[Calm]

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/the-norse-an-arctic-mystery

 

This Dr. lady got the boot for discovering things that don't add up to the prevailing theory, sad

You know for sure this is why she was dismissed? The article does not go into that:

"In the spring of 2012, Dr. Pat Sutherland was dismissed from the Canadian Museum of Civilization after working there for 30 years. She was most recently the curator of Arctic Archeology. Dr. Sutherland is contesting the dismissal through her union, so she can regain access to her research. Currently the Helluland Project has been suspended."

[Calm]

From another article:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Fired+Arctic+archeologist+Patricia+Sutherland+seeks+access+research/9579009/story.html

"Neither Sutherland nor the museum will discuss the reasons for her dismissal, but it followed a yearlong investigation into allegations of harassment and bullying against her and her archeologist husband, Robert McGhee, who was stripped of his emeritus status when Sutherland was dismissed.

The CBC show The Fifth Estate featured Sutherland’s story in a documentary in January called The Silence of the Labs, which critically examined the Conservative government’s treatment of federal scientists.

The documentary reported on a 445-page report done for the museum that contained a “repetitive litany of complaints” about Sutherland, mostly from former colleagues. It painted “an unflattering portrayal of a single-minded scientist” who was “bossy and impatient” and “sometimes spoke too bluntly,” the documentary said."

Edited May 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tiki]

If you mean long after she died, surely they would be able to tell because it would be unlikely the bones would be grouped together since the remains would fall apart when moved from the original site.

Besides they don't claim she lived there:

"She may have ventured into dark passages of a cave to find fresh water and fallen to her death into what archaeologist James Chatters of the firm of Applied Paleoscience, one of the leaders of the study, called an "inescapable trap" 30 metres deep - a bell-shaped pit dubbed Hoyo Negro, "black hole" in Spanish."

Well everyone knows that only 15-16 year old girls venture to black holes for fresh water, because Mesoamerica is literally a desert devoid of water sources. And no one under 15 or over 17 venture to black holes. This is also why the cave bear, the giant ground sloth, the sabre-tooth tiger and the gomopthere were also found in the hole. They also all fell in while looking for water. No thuendidn't die someplace else and their bones were eventually washed into the hole. They all fell in, because they were stupid.

And the scuba-diving scientists were fortunate to find the skull and come up with the likely story of a teenage girl's adventure so they could they write off their travel and scuba-diving expenses against their govt-provided grant money, instead of paying for their Caribbean Adventure Cruise from their personal funds.

[Duncan]

From another article:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Fired+Arctic+archeologist+Patricia+Sutherland+seeks+access+research/9579009/story.html

"Neither Sutherland nor the museum will discuss the reasons for her dismissal, but it followed a yearlong investigation into allegations of harassment and bullying against her and her archeologist husband, Robert McGhee, who was stripped of his emeritus status when Sutherland was dismissed.

The CBC show The Fifth Estate featured Sutherland’s story in a documentary in January called The Silence of the Labs, which critically examined the Conservative government’s treatment of federal scientists.

The documentary reported on a 445-page report done for the museum that contained a “repetitive litany of complaints” about Sutherland, mostly from former colleagues. It painted “an unflattering portrayal of a single-minded scientist” who was “bossy and impatient” and “sometimes spoke too bluntly,” the documentary said."

 

 

that's interesting! I wonder if what she found can be seperated from all that drama, like take her out but take her findings and do something with that

[Yirgacheffe]

Well everyone knows that only 15-16 year old girls venture to black holes for fresh water, because Mesoamerica is literally a desert devoid of water sources. And no one under 15 or over 17 venture to black holes. This is also why the cave bear, the giant ground sloth, the sabre-tooth tiger and the gomopthere were also found in the hole. They also all fell in while looking for water. No thuendidn't die someplace else and their bones were eventually washed into the hole. They all fell in, because they were stupid.

 

Because no human being or animal in history has ever fallen into a hole in the ground or got stuck in a tar pit, or fallen off a cliff.  There were no accidents until modern man because up until that time everyone and everything was to smart to have an accident.

[Calm]

Perhaps there was a source of fresh water close by which the animals smelled and followed into the caves but at times some lost dangerous footing and were trapped in the pit. If animals had sought out water, then likely hunters had followed them in and also knew of the source, shared the information with the girl but the girl less familiar with the pathway through the caves fell into the pit.

Makes more sense than somehow finding multiple whole or significant portions of skeletons after having been washed into the cave....from where exactly without having pieces scattered all through the caves did they washed through. I got the impression it was rather deep in the cave, why wouldn't the bones have snagged up elsewhere? Especially the larger varieties.

Didn't say in the article that they were whole or how much, I am assuming the amount of bones is one of the reasons they believe the girl and animals died on site. If the water seeped in over time, larger bones would likely not be moved much....bones don't float, do they? If it was a major spring melt or a number of them as glaciers diminished, the bones may have been jumbled up some but not likely to float out of the pit so they should find most of them.

Any details on how much of the skeleton was retrieved?

Addon: That Nat Geo article calls it "The oldest complete skeleton of its kind"....

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/05/140515-skeleton-ice-age-mexico-cave-hoyo-negro-archaeology/

"The skeleton, dubbed "Naia" (an ancient Greek name related to water nymphs) by her discoverers, belonged to a teenage girl who fell more than 100 feet to her death nearly a half mile inside an elaborate network of karst caves that were largely dry at the end of the Pleistocene. Divers who found Naia in the cave on Mexico's Yucatán Peninsula named her watery grave Hoyo Negro ("Black Hole" in Spanish)."

"The girl was "probably in search of water," said archaeologist Dominique Rissolo, the project's co-director. "Water would have been scarce with the water table that low. There are no lakes and rivers in the area, so people and animals would have had to venture into caves."

Naia was found with a broken pelvis, probably from the impact of the fall—a hard end to what was likely a hard life. She shows signs of tooth decay and osteoporosis, perhaps as a result of becoming pregnant at an early age, before reaching full physical maturity. "She was absolutely tiny," Chatters said.

The submergence of the cave between 10,000 and 4,000 years ago helped preserve Naia's skeleton, and the lack of sediment deposition left her bones in clear sight for the divers. "She is heavily mineralized, so there's a strong, hard quality to the bones, which is great for getting skeletal measurements," Rissolo said. "But for dating, it's a different situation altogether."

Without any bone collagen for radiocarbon dating, the team triangulated the skeleton's age by determining the age of calcite crystals known as "florets" growing on the bones, carbon-dating nearby bat guano, and carbon-dating Naia's tooth enamel.

All that, coupled with the nearby Pleistocene-era animal remains and estimates of when the cave would have flooded, led the team to conclude she was at least 12,000 years old, and perhaps closer to 13,000."

Edited May 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

"There are no lakes and rivers in the area"

So what washed them into the cave, Tiki?

[Rob Osborn]

It never ceases to amaze me how they can find one little thing and in the end come up with a complete history for a peoples origins. Just another reason i reject their musings.

[Calm]

Did you read the article I linked to? Just out of curiosity?

[thesometimesaint]

It never ceases to amaze me how they can find one little thing and in the end come up with a complete history for a peoples origins. Just another reason i reject their musings.

 

That isn't what the article claims/

[Rob Osborn]

That isn't what the article claims/

Hum, they make some pretty far out claims...

" Scientists say the skeleton belonged to a teenage girl, and genetic tests on the superbly preserved remains found by cave divers have answered questions about the origins of the New World's (western hemisphere's) first people."

"These findings, published in the journal Science, determined that the Ice Age humans who first crossed into the Americas over a land bridge that formerly linked Siberia to Alaska did in fact give rise to modern Native American populations rather than hypothesised later entrants into the hemisphere."

"This indicates cranial and other differences between the earliest New World human remains and today's Native Americans are due to evolutionary changes that unfolded after the first migrants crossed onto the land bridge, the researchers said."

[thesometimesaint]

Hum, they make some pretty far out claims...

" Scientists say the skeleton belonged to a teenage girl, and genetic tests on the superbly preserved remains found by cave divers have answered questions about the origins of the New World's (western hemisphere's) first people."

"These findings, published in the journal Science, determined that the Ice Age humans who first crossed into the Americas over a land bridge that formerly linked Siberia to Alaska did in fact give rise to modern Native American populations rather than hypothesised later entrants into the hemisphere."

"This indicates cranial and other differences between the earliest New World human remains and today's Native Americans are due to evolutionary changes that unfolded after the first migrants crossed onto the land bridge, the researchers said."

 

I know what it says. It is not talking about everyone whom came to the Americas. Just the oldest known group.

[Rob Osborn]

I know what it says. It is not talking about everyone whom came to the Americas. Just the oldest known group.

So they find the remains of one girl and now suddenly they know the mysteries of the first people to come over on the land bridge? So much conjecture in the article (and countless others like it) it sickens me to think this is what we call science.

[thesometimesaint]

So they find the remains of one girl and now suddenly they know the mysteries of the first people to come over on the land bridge? So much conjecture in the article (and countless others like it) it sickens me to think this is what we call science.

 

Unless that girl somehow traveled by herself to that area. Then it is best to say she came with others.

[Rob Osborn]

Unless that girl somehow traveled by herself to that area. Then it is best to say she came with others.

How would they know if perhaps she wasn't a slave brought over on a ship? Or, maybe she was of royal blood that came over on one of the Jaredite barges? My point here is that yes, they did find the remains. Now how them remains actually fit is a complete mystery and doesn't really answer any questions because there are too many unkowns. For all we know she could have been the son of a deckhand for ancient shipping between the far east and the America's who was intentionally drowned for stealing from the ships captain. We just do not have anywhere close to the right information to start assuming how an entire population was based off the remains of one person.

[thesometimesaint]

How would they know if perhaps she wasn't a slave brought over on a ship? Or, maybe she was of royal blood that came over on one of the Jaredite barges? My point here is that yes, they did find the remains. Now how them remains actually fit is a complete mystery and doesn't really answer any questions because there are too many unkowns. For all we know she could have been the son of a deckhand for ancient shipping between the far east and the America's who was intentionally drowned for stealing from the ships captain. We just do not have anywhere close to the right information to start assuming how an entire population was based off the remains of one person.

 

We have her bones. They match those of a person from the Far East some 12,000 years ago. That is what the article says.

 

She could have been a girl from modern day Timbuktu captured by the Martians and time traveled back to 12,000 years ago. Killed in a sex experiment on the Mother Ship and the remains thrown down a hole. Talk about conjecture.

Edited May 18, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Rob Osborn]

We have her bones. They match those of a person from the Far East some 12,000 years ago. That is what the article says.

 

She could have been a girl from modern day Timbuktu captured by the Martians and time traveled back to 12,000 years ago. Killed in a sex experiment on the Mother Ship and the remains thrown down a hole. Talk about conjecture.

Well even the date is conjecture.

[thesometimesaint]

Well even the date is conjecture.

 

No it is NOT. Radioactive decay dating is well established science.

[wtrdog]

Well everyone knows that only 15-16 year old girls venture to black holes for fresh water, because Mesoamerica is literally a desert devoid of water sources. And no one under 15 or over 17 venture to black holes. This is also why the cave bear, the giant ground sloth, the sabre-tooth tiger and the gomopthere were also found in the hole. They also all fell in while looking for water. No thuendidn't die someplace else and their bones were eventually washed into the hole. They all fell in, because they were stupid.

And the scuba-diving scientists were fortunate to find the skull and come up with the likely story of a teenage girl's adventure so they could they write off their travel and scuba-diving expenses against their govt-provided grant money, instead of paying for their Caribbean Adventure Cruise from their personal funds.

 

I'm not sure what you're blathering on about.  The date of the girl's bones has nothing to do with the other bones also found in the cave.  As for whether the bones might have washed into the cave somehow, well, I don't know, but I'd love to hear your theory about how a full skeleton would be transported by moving water and left complete and in place.  Even if that were possible, it doesn't change how old she is.

[halconero]

How would they know if perhaps she wasn't a slave brought over on a ship? Or, maybe she was of royal blood that came over on one of the Jaredite barges? My point here is that yes, they did find the remains. Now how them remains actually fit is a complete mystery and doesn't really answer any questions because there are too many unkowns. For all we know she could have been the son of a deckhand for ancient shipping between the far east and the America's who was intentionally drowned for stealing from the ships captain. We just do not have anywhere close to the right information to start assuming how an entire population was based off the remains of one person.

1) osteoporosis and tooth decay in skeletons is far more prevalent in lower class agrarian societies

2) they know she was young because sutures in the bone structure fuse at different ages. Give me a skeleton I can tell you a lot about their diet, what social class they came from, how old they were when they died, and what killed them.

3) given the injuries on the skeleton, drowning is unlikely.

[ERayR]

Well everyone knows that only 15-16 year old girls venture to black holes for fresh water, because Mesoamerica is literally a desert devoid of water sources. And no one under 15 or over 17 venture to black holes. This is also why the cave bear, the giant ground sloth, the sabre-tooth tiger and the gomopthere were also found in the hole. They also all fell in while looking for water. No thuendidn't die someplace else and their bones were eventually washed into the hole. They all fell in, because they were stupid.

And the scuba-diving scientists were fortunate to find the skull and come up with the likely story of a teenage girl's adventure so they could they write off their travel and scuba-diving expenses against their govt-provided grant money, instead of paying for their Caribbean Adventure Cruise from their personal funds.

 

When something like this is found there is always life story told with it .  As detailed as they are I just assumed it was copied from the daily diary found with the remains.