seed Posted April 15, 2014 Posted April 15, 2014 What is the story about the book of Enoch? I know what is in it, but what are the opinions and or facts about its position in history. Many would argue that the book is referenced from OT && NT and possibly an available source at the time some of the other content that is considered scripture was generated. Perl Of Great Price has The Book Of Moses with some parallel content. This ancient writing from Enoch seems to provide some logical reasons for some of the mysteries. Why would it not be in the general cannon for any outside of Ethiopia? Is it just that there isn’t room for it or does it teach things that we should not believe? Or if not maybe it is unnecessary information? Maybe the answer is that this one is not any more special than others that did not or have not been included. Is it just luck/good or bad that this work (book of Enoch) is not more prominent?
Buzzard Posted April 15, 2014 Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) I would liken the Book of Enoch to the Apocrypha. If you read it and dig deep and have the spirit with you, you will find some wonderful things in there. But there is a lot of additions and deletions from the original text as well. Hugh Nibley did an excellent series in the Ensign on the Book of Enoch back in the 70's. Here is the link to the search results, you will have to click on each one individually. since it was presented over the course of more than a year:https://www.lds.org/search?lang=eng&collection=magazines&query=%22A+Strange+Thing+in+the+Land%22&x=5&y=8On a side note, they just don't have this kind of juicy stuff in the Ensign any more, Which I understand, since the church demographic has changed since then. A lot fewer long time members and so on. But part of me misses Ensign articles that made you work at understanding just what they were talking about. See, us old guys and our memories are good for something. Edited April 15, 2014 by Buzzard 3
David T Posted April 15, 2014 Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) It's a Second Temple pseudepigrapha expanding Enoch legendary imagery and themes, likely to denounce what are seen as the wicked Jerusalem temple priests (represented by the watchers).Its worldview is known, assumed, and highly influential on many of the NT writers. I think the 'Truth or Fiction' dichotomy is strange, as while I don't think it is an expression of the facts of history, it does transmit relevant truths. I love 1 Enoch. It's a fascinating read, and serves as an important bridge between our Old Testament and New Testament. Edited April 15, 2014 by David T 2
The Nehor Posted April 16, 2014 Posted April 16, 2014 The best book of Enoch is tucked into the Book of Moses.
Coreyb Posted April 16, 2014 Posted April 16, 2014 The best book of Enoch is tucked into the Book of Moses.No, 2nd Enoch is better 1
The Nehor Posted April 16, 2014 Posted April 16, 2014 No, 2nd Enoch is better I've read both and I disrespectfully disagree.
Coreyb Posted April 16, 2014 Posted April 16, 2014 I think a better question than truth or fiction is, are there traditions and themes in the Enoch literature that predate the books second temple composition. Hugh Nibley argues that there are, and that some date all the way back to the time of Enoch the ancestor of Noah. His book is very faith promoting, but I don't think it is all that accurate. Margaret Barker uses the Enoch literature to paint a picture of first temple israelite religion that was destroyed by deuteronomists and written out of the old testament when it was put together. I am not sure what to think of the books of Enoch, but they are very interesting. Also, conspiracy theorists use them to show that aliens visited earth in prehistoric times. 4
Popular Post erdoch Posted April 16, 2014 Popular Post Posted April 16, 2014 I think a better question than truth or fiction is, are there traditions and themes in the Enoch literature that predate the books second temple composition. Hugh Nibley argues that there are, and that some date all the way back to the time of Enoch the ancestor of Noah. His book is very faith promoting, but I don't think it is all that accurate. Margaret Barker uses the Enoch literature to paint a picture of first temple israelite religion that was destroyed by deuteronomists and written out of the old testament when it was put together. I am not sure what to think of the books of Enoch, but they are very interesting. Also, conspiracy theorists use them to show that aliens visited earth in prehistoric times. I agree that this is the right question to ask. Jeffrey Bradshaw recently wrote an interesting article arguing that similarities between the Book of Moses and the Enoch literature suggest that both have origins in actual history. This in response to David Bokovoy's suggestion that the Book of Moses is "inspired pseudopigrapha", meaning not necessarily historically based but using scriptural themes and stories to teach inspired truths (sort of like the books of Job and Jonah not being historical either, or some of the epistles of Paul not actually written by Paul - but still considered part of the scriptural cannon and teaching inspired truths). The only problem with Jeffrey's critique is that he doesn't actually demonstrate historically that the traditions and themes of the Enoch literature go further back... Personally, I'm back-and-forth on this - open to both Bokovoy's inspired pseudopigrapha option and the idea that there is a historical basis for the Enoch stories. I admittedly lean towards the Book of Moses being at least partly historical - if not it seems to set us up to expect the return of a City of Enoch which doesn't exist. I do think the Book of Moses, being part of the Joseph Smith Translation, reflects varying levels of inspiration - the JST was a work in progress, including many of Joseph's own ideas and I do not at all consider every change made as the original or even the "most right" reading of the text. However, the lengthy additions we have about Enoch seem more like pure revelation than the word-by-word corrections. Though it is also true that the apocalyptic themes of Enoch are considered a development of Hellenistic Judaism, so it is difficult to make any strong arguments for themes such as encounters with the devil going back into earlier Judaism. So I've been back and forth on this subject recently. But am open to any new information on the subject. 5
seed Posted April 16, 2014 Author Posted April 16, 2014 Intresting ideas so far. It sounds like that some or many believe it is an important document. How does it not get include to canon ? How about some of the topics in it.- evil spirits from the giants ? [Chapt XV]- Angels comming to earth to mate ? 1
Kevin Christensen Posted April 16, 2014 Posted April 16, 2014 (edited) Besides Hugh Nibley's Enoch the Prophet, and Margaret Barker's Lost Prophet and The Older Testament, other scholars have been looking at First Enoch recently. Andrei Orlov and Gabriele Boccaccini and George Nicklesburg come to mind. I've read it a few times (the early Lawrence, Charles, and recent Nickesburgh translations), and subsequent readings have been much more useful than the first. Barker makes the point that its very strangeness is an important clue that we've lost something in our approach to the New Testament. Lawrence and Charles both identified over 100 allusions and paraphrases from Enoch in the New Testament. So however strange it is to us, it wasn't strange to those writers. Jude has a direct quote. Think about Jude being described as a brother of Jesus. Barker followed the ideas in Enoch back to a source in First Temple Judaism, and then found other ideas flowing from the same source feeding into early Christianity. For my money, the single most helpful insight in dealing with First Enoch came from Barker's comment that First Enoch is a repository of high priestly traditions. High priestly because it contains visions set in the Holy of Holies, into which only the high priest could go. Nibley makes a good case that the Lawrence Enoch is the only version that Joseph Smith might have seen, but that was also very unlikely. Quinn thought it possible, but I think not. Joseph's critics included book sellers, second generation religious leaders, and newspaper editors, all of whom had better resources and opportunities for access, and no one mentioned it. The first LDS comments on 1 Enoch came from Parley P. Pratt, in England, who made no connections with the Pearl of Great Price. Nibley and Barker both point out the history that the Jewish and Christian communities both tossed out all of "other books" in the mid fourth century. Those who preserved the texts were a bit out of the way. Ethiopian Christians, and Slavonic Christians. Nibley's The Enoch Figure traces the roots way way back. FWIW Kevin Christensen Pittsburgh, PA Edited April 17, 2014 by Kevin Christensen 3
SamIam Posted April 18, 2014 Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) What is the story about the book of Enoch? I know what is in it, but what are the opinions and or facts about its position in history. Many would argue that the book is referenced from OT && NT and possibly an available source at the time some of the other content that is considered scripture was generated. Perl Of Great Price has The Book Of Moses with some parallel content. This ancient writing from Enoch seems to provide some logical reasons for some of the mysteries. Why would it not be in the general cannon for any outside of Ethiopia? Is it just that there isn’t room for it or does it teach things that we should not believe? Or if not maybe it is unnecessary information? Maybe the answer is that this one is not any more special than others that did not or have not been included. Is it just luck/good or bad that this work (book of Enoch) is not more prominent? There are actually 3 different texts referred to as the Book of Enoch. The most well know is the Lawrence version translated from the Ethiopic. I have another version translated by E. Isaac. Typically called 1st Enoch. 200 B.C. - 100 A.D. 2nd Enoch is a translation from the Slavonic translated by F.I. Anderson thought to be from the late first century. 100 AD 3rd Enoch is translated from the Hebrew, and thought to be from around 500 - 600 A.D. It has been many years since I have read them but I recall that I thought there was much uniqueness to each version. Edited April 18, 2014 by SamIam 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted April 19, 2014 Posted April 19, 2014 What is the story about the book of Enoch? I know what is in it, but what are the opinions and or facts about its position in history. Many would argue that the book is referenced from OT && NT and possibly an available source at the time some of the other content that is considered scripture was generated. Perl Of Great Price has The Book Of Moses with some parallel content. This ancient writing from Enoch seems to provide some logical reasons for some of the mysteries. Why would it not be in the general cannon for any outside of Ethiopia? Is it just that there isn’t room for it or does it teach things that we should not believe? Or if not maybe it is unnecessary information? Maybe the answer is that this one is not any more special than others that did not or have not been included. Is it just luck/good or bad that this work (book of Enoch) is not more prominent?Enoch, without a doubt fact...who also gave the best explanation of being born of the water and the spirit unto life eternal. Moses 6: 58-60.
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