A Simple Question For Latter-Day Saint Friends

[Akboy]

In searching around from other sources I saw this:

 

http://C***.org/what-happens-those-who-have-never-heard-gospel

 

Do you believe in that second option?  Is this a common Christian belief?

 

Later in the article is seems even he doesn't think that 2nd option is a reality:

People who believe in the second option are mainly basing it on optimistic speculation from verses that don't really talk about the issue. I lean toward the first option because when you take all the verses about God's nature, they seem to point toward the first. Loving is one of His natures, but so is holiness, righteousness and justice, and one attribute can't override the others. I know many people don't like that idea of God, but our preferences and opinions about what God should be don't have any impact on what He actually is. The link I posted pointed this out when it said "Does the question, however it is answered, change whether or not Christianity is true? It doesn't. If God exists and has revealed Himself to us, and if Christ is the only way to God, then the question may puzzle us, but it won't change the truth of the Christian message."

 

No, I don't believe general revelation is enough to be saved and nothing in the Bible suggests it is. But like it said in one of your quotes, various missionaries reported unreached people groups being aware of God before they even got there. God is sovereign, which basically means He is in control and has not limitations. He'll know if some people in a remote amazon village will start responding to general revelation 10 years from now. So He'll start preparing missionaries now who will be there in 10 years to tell them the rest of the story.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Akboy

[Brian 2.0]

God is sovereign, which basically means He is in control and has not limitations. He'll know if some people in a remote amazon village will start responding to general revelation 10 years from now. So He'll start preparing missionaries now who will be there in 10 years to tell them the rest of the story.

 

Interesting.  So do you believe then that those that died without hearing  the missionaries/Christ/Bible would not have accepted the special revelation had it been presented to them?  If they would have accepted Christ, then God would have figured out a way to get them to hear about Christ.

 

Sure plenty of people have died without hearing about Christ or the bible throughout time, but in the end, EVERYONE that would accept Christ will hear about Christ, because God will make it happen.  Don't worry about those that died without hearing about the Bible and the Christ's dead, because they wouldn't have accepted it had they heard it.

 

Would you agree with that?

[Akboy]

Interesting.  So do you believe then that those that died without hearing  the missionaries/Christ/Bible would not have accepted the special revelation had it been presented to them?  If they would have accepted Christ, then God would have figured out a way to get them to hear about Christ.

 

Sure plenty of people have died without hearing about Christ or the bible throughout time, but in the end, EVERYONE that would accept Christ will hear about Christ, because God will make it happen.  Don't worry about those that died without hearing about the Bible and the Christ's dead, because they wouldn't have accepted it had they heard it.

 

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

LDS theology actually has a similar issue. They say human history is a type of testing period that includes key elements like having no concrete evidence of God and having to deal with temptation from Satan. They say God's plan for this life is to endure the test while following LDS gospel principles, the restored priesthood, etc. and gain eternal life/exaltation in the final judgement.

 

They also believe there was a great apostasy, which means mankind lost LDS gospel principles, the priesthood, etc. which started after the apostles died and ended when Joseph Smith "restored" the true church.

 

Add those two doctrines together and you have a huge, unanswered question: What about the people during the 1700+ year apostasy who sincerely wanted to follow God's plan? They had no way to follow LDS gospel principles or the restored priesthood, so they couldn't follow God's plan. Yes, they quickly say those people can accept the gospel after they die, but the existence of God will be obvious at that point and temptation won't be an issue either, so they'll have no way to fully follow the test.

 

According to Evangelical theology and the Bible, everyone who truly wanted to follow God got an answer. But according to LDS theology, countless people for 1700+ years tried to follow God and He ignored them. Be careful which one you follow.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Akboy

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

LDS theology actually has a similar issue. They say human history is a type of testing period that includes key elements like having no concrete evidence of God and having to deal with temptation from Satan. They say God's plan for this life is to endure the test while following LDS gospel principles, the restored priesthood, etc. and gain eternal life/exaltation in the final judgement.

 

They also believe there was a great apostasy, which means mankind lost LDS gospel principles, the priesthood, etc. which started after the apostles died and ended when Joseph Smith "restored" the true church.

 

Add those two doctrines together and you have a huge, unanswered question: What about the people during the 1700+ year apostasy who sincerely wanted to follow God's plan? They had no way to follow LDS gospel principles or the restored priesthood, so they couldn't follow God's plan. Yes, they quickly say those people can accept the gospel after they die, but the existence of God will be obvious at that point and temptation won't be an issue either, so they'll have no way to fully follow the test.

 

According to Evangelical theology and the Bible, everyone who truly wanted to follow God got an answer. But according to LDS theology, countless people for 1700+ years tried to follow God and He ignored them. Be careful which one you follow.

Not entirely true...

Because agency is an eternal principle, and we die with the same spirit (attributes) that we developed in this life- There will be many who will still deny the Gospel though it is preached to them by an angel of Heaven.

There IS, in fact, a testing period for those who do accept afterwards and during the Millennium... the "little season" that happens at the end of the Millennium and before Final Judgement.

[teddyaware]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

 

LDS theology actually has a similar issue. They say human history is a type of testing period that includes key elements like having no concrete evidence of God and having to deal with temptation from Satan. They say God's plan for this life is to endure the test while following LDS gospel principles, the restored priesthood, etc. and gain eternal life/exaltation in the final judgement.

 

They also believe there was a great apostasy, which means mankind lost LDS gospel principles, the priesthood, etc. which started after the apostles died and ended when Joseph Smith "restored" the true church.

 

Add those two doctrines together and you have a huge, unanswered question: What about the people during the 1700+ year apostasy who sincerely wanted to follow God's plan? They had no way to follow LDS gospel principles or the restored priesthood, so they couldn't follow God's plan. Yes, they quickly say those people can accept the gospel after they die, but the existence of God will be obvious at that point and temptation won't be an issue either, so they'll have no way to fully follow the test.

 

According to Evangelical theology and the Bible, everyone who truly wanted to follow God got an answer. But according to LDS theology, countless people for 1700+ years tried to follow God and He ignored them. Be careful which one you follow.

What about the millions upon millions of people throughout that 1700 year period who lived in China, Mongolia, India and all the other remote regions that were so very far away from the centers of Christianity? The people who lived in these far-flung places practiced and were loyal to other religions and a very great number of them never had an opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel of Christ. For these people who never had a proper exposure to Christianity during that 1700 year period, it didn't make any difference if there was an apostasy or not -- they never got their chance to accept the gospel! So you're right back where you started.

And what about Satan and his followers who rejected God while in His full presence in heaven? Why were they harshly judged and cast out of heaven when (paraphrasing) "the existence of God was obvious at that point" and, according to your understanding, temptation wasn't an issue either? Was theirs a fair test? Why did they rebel when, according to your thinking, temptation wasn't and issue? Or was it?  

 

For your information, the Latter-day Saints believe the wicked who die without accepting the Gospel of Christ are not taken up into heaven -- where the devil and his followers were before being cast out -- but are instead thrust into hell, far away from the immediate light and presence of God.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (D&C 76)

While in hell (also called the spirit prison), far away from the immediate presence of God, the test of mortality and the woes attendant to spiritual death continue for these people; and the opportunity to receive the Gospel is extended to them when the Lord deems the time is right. Under these circumstances, the continuing test of mortality is significant enough for Peter to say:

5 Who (all men and women) shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 1)

 

Unlike many other Christian soteriologies, the LDS plan of salvation teaches us that God does not give up easily on His beloved spirit children, and that in His infinite and eternal wisdom He has created a system of salvation wherein all will eventually come unto Christ and be saved, except for those who for reasons beyond my present understanding, like Satan, want nothing to do with Christ and His salvation.

 

What follows is glimpse of a doctrine of salvation that is truly worthy of a God who is supposed to be a being of perfect, undying love and infinite mercy:

30 But behold, from among the righteous (departed spirits), he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (D&C 138)

The above is a plan of salvation is worthy of a Being who is the supposed to be the embodiment of perfect love. Every day of my life I rejoice in the supreme blessing that my mind and heart have been liberated from fear by coming to know the God of perfect wisdom, undying mercy, and eternal love.

Edited April 14, 2014 by teddyaware

[Akboy]

Not entirely true...

Because agency is an eternal principle, and we die with the same spirit (attributes) that we developed in this life- There will be many who will still deny the Gospel though it is preached to them by an angel of Heaven.

There IS, in fact, a testing period for those who do accept afterwards and during the Millennium... the "little season" that happens at the end of the Millennium and before Final Judgement.

Isn't the veil covering our eyes so we don't remember God an important part of the test? By the end of the Millennium and certainly seeing an angel of heaven will make it pretty clear God is real and behind the LDS church. Why is the veil so important for us, but not for them? Plus, will those who died also be able to follow all the other gospel principles, marriage in the temple, enduring to the end, etc.?

What about the millions upon millions of people throughout that 1700 year period who lived in China, Mongolia, India and all the other remote regions that were so very far away from the centers of Christianity? The people who lived in these far-flung places practiced and were loyal to other religions and a very great number of them never had an opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel of Christ. For these people who never had a proper exposure to Christianity during that 1700 year period, it didn't make any difference if there was an apostasy or not -- they never got their chance to accept the gospel! So you're right back where you started.

I already responded to that. Check post 177. Edited April 14, 2014 by Akboy

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Isn't the veil covering our eyes so we don't remember God an important part of the test? By the end of the Millennium and certainly seeing an angel of heaven will make it pretty clear God is real and behind the LDS church. Why is the veil so important for us, but not for them? Plus, will those who died also be able to follow all the other gospel principles, marriage in the temple, enduring to the end, etc.?

I already responded to that. Check post 177.

Not really... When one accepts the Gospel the veil is essentially lifted, yet that person continues to struggle against temptation and sin in their lives. It will be not different for them. And really the test is not whether or not we will be saved (as all are except the sons of perdition) but how obedient we will be to the knowledge given us, so that we can be weighed in the balance appropriately and assigned the proper glory.

You would have to ask the temple marriage thing to someone else as it is not a principle I ascribe to.

[DaddyB]

The answer is yes if answering the question the way Paul stated it in the New Testament. As he meant it, anyone who has the gospel has eternal life. The Gospel is Eternal Life in a manner of speaking. As we hold on to that gospel by living it, we keep it and receive its fullness.

 

The problem with this question is that it is meant as an Evangelical trap. Evangelicals have different meanings for different words than LDS. In this situation they are not interested in understanding, but looking for a way to trap us with misunderstanding to make it appear that our doctrine is different than the Bible.