Scott Lloyd Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Anyone who thinks they have a RIGHT to the priesthood has no idea what the priesthood is, nor how it functions.Can't give a rep point using ah iPod, so I'll just give this post a solid amen.
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Well, I'm glad you have that level of faith in our leaders. I personally like to see actual revelation when changes are made, especially when it appears that they have caved to society.We have seen societal pressures actually cause direct revelation to be issued. We have also seen societal pressures cause policies to change (and we have only assumed revelation was issued.) And we have seen societal pressures cause policies to change (and were told no revelation was necessary for that particular policy).I personally like to know rather than simply trust that God's will is being done. It is a very brave member who accepts change on blind faith (and even on this board we have members from all along the acceptance spectrum - from the blindly faithful to the skeptical cynic).Who said anything about blind faith? I have the privilege of receiving my own witness through prayer and the Spirit of whether a certain policy is good or approved or if I should comply. Never has The Lord told me not to abide church policy. But the answer does not just come without studying it out and applying my mind. Simply asking is usually not sufficient Edited March 28, 2014 by jchristopher
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 If you've been through the temple you should be able to answer these questions.And the higher ordinances refers to the Second Anointing, an ordinance given to a very select few men and women in the Church (and which does feature ordination of the wife - hands are laid on their heads, they are ordained to a specific office unique to women, but that has a male counterpart in the Melchezidek Priesthood.)So given all this, why they want to be Bishops and Deacons is a mystery to me. Aim higher.I've been through the temple, but as you said, very few have received these "higher ordinances" so it makes sense that I wouldn't know about them.
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I don't think I've ever heard that. The Relief Society is delegated authority to preside in the Relief Society, but I'm not sure that amounts to the "excercise (of) the bishop's priesthood."Thanks,-SmacWell, if she's delegated authority and she acts in that authority, what's the difference?
Bikeemikey Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Yeah, I feel like they've moved away from their original plan that, for me, seemed less rebellious.They had, last year, simply said something to the effect of: "We are going to stand in line and ask to be admitted to the priesthood session to show that we are ready to receive the priesthood." They were clear that if/when they were denied admittance they would politely leave.I think they've strayed quite a bit from that original plan. I thought there plan was the same this year. Would please provide a reference that their plan is different for this conference. Thank.
Bikeemikey Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) They seem to be going against paul admonishes to be of one mind. They seem to wish to sow contention in the discussion and make it a church thing and not a heavenly father thing. It is as if they believe that the lds church is a human run church and even though they can say all the mormon things or words, their actions speak otherwise. So, it is here that we must separate words from actions. I think you have this backwards. They think the current policy is a church thing, not a heavenly father thing, and want additional clarification on this. The idea they think the Church is not guided by revelation is not in-line with there request for revelation from the prophet. And Paul was never contentious with any of the other Apostles? Edited March 28, 2014 by Bikeemikey
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I think they believe that the scriptures have already given us the answer to that question.Why do you think that? Have you ever prayed and fasted to know if it is the Lord's will?
Bikeemikey Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Why do you think that? Have you ever prayed and fasted to know if it is the Lord's will? People fast and pray about similar issues all the time and get different answers... you seem to be asserting the answer being referred to by Rockpond would be an impossible outcome from prayer and fasting? Or did I miss something?
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 CFR that "we all know..." Obviously we don't ALL know or we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you think that you have some sort of bullet-proof set of scriptures and modern revelations that would absolutely convince everyone, then you really ought to get it published so that the OW sisters will stop wasting their time.Maybe you don't all know, but you could. It has been laid forth in the scriptures, Even in the very beginning of them. When it comes to the organization of God's priesthood and delegation of His power and authority, I have no doubt it has been clearly laid out to the leaders of His church.
Stone holm Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 They seem to be going against paul admonishes to be of one mind. They seem to wish to sow contention in the discussion and make it a church thing and not a heavenly father thing. It is as if they believe that the lds church is a human run church and even though they can say all the mormon things or words, their actions speak otherwise. So, it is here that we must separate words from actions.Yes. Never understood why members can't simply be of the same mind as me on all things. 2
smac97 Posted March 28, 2014 Author Posted March 28, 2014 Anyone who thinks they have a RIGHT to the priesthood has no idea what the priesthood is, nor how it functions. Agreed (except, I suppose, for the sons of Aaron, who have a "legal right to the presidency of the (Aaronic) priesthood" (D&C 107:76)). Thanks, -Smac
Scott Lloyd Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Yes. Never understood why members can't simply be of the same mind as me on all things.Being of the same mind as God and being of the same mind as you are quite distinct propositions. Edited March 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Agreed (except, I suppose, for the sons of Aaron, who have a "legal right to the presidency of the (Aaronic) priesthood" (D&C 107:76)).Thanks,-SmacBut even that would be contingent upon personal worthiness, I should think.
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 CFR that "we all know..." Obviously we don't ALL know or we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you think that you have some sort of bullet-proof set of scriptures and modern revelations that would absolutely convince everyone, then you really ought to get it published so that the OW sisters will stop wasting their time.Perhaps reviewing the institute manual "Teachings of the Living Prophets" and the Priesthood chapter of the Church Handbook Part B would be helpful. I don't see how you can reconcile the teachings in those readings with your position on women and the priesthood
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 CFR that "we all know..." Obviously we don't ALL know or we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you think that you have some sort of bullet-proof set of scriptures and modern revelations that would absolutely convince everyone, then you really ought to get it published so that the OW sisters will stop wasting their time.Perhaps reviewing the institute manual "Teachings of the Living Prophets" and the Priesthood chapter of the Church Handbook Part B would be helpful for you as well.
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 CFR that "we all know..." Obviously we don't ALL know or we wouldn't be having this discussion. If you think that you have some sort of bullet-proof set of scriptures and modern revelations that would absolutely convince everyone, then you really ought to get it published so that the OW sisters will stop wasting their time.Perhaps reviewing the institute manual "Teachings of the Living Prophets" and the Priesthood chapter of the Church Handbook Part B would be helpful for you as well.
rockpond Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I thought there plan was the same this year. Would please provide a reference that their plan is different for this conference.Thank.Same plan this year but it seems like the pronouncements and rhetoric have gotten worse.
rockpond Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Perhaps reviewing the institute manual "Teachings of the Living Prophets" and the Priesthood chapter of the Church Handbook Part B would be helpful for you as well.Took the class and I have copies of the handbooks. Are you suggesting that those are your bullet-proof, convincing arguments that will bring everyone up to speed on what "we all know"? Edited March 28, 2014 by rockpond
Buzzard Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Took the class and I have copies of the handbooks. Are you suggesting that those are your bullet-proof, convincing arguments that will bring everyone up to speed on what "we all know"?Rock, sometimes I get the feeling that if an angel came to you and told you that current doctrine on women and the priesthood-or a couple other precepts that have been discussed here-was correct, you would ask for a second or third witness. Could current doctrine change? I suppose. Is it likely to? Probably a lot less likely than you think. Is it the current, accepted, settled doctrine of the Lord's church right now? No doubt about it. What's the old line from more than one song? "There are none so blind as those who will not see".
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I'm not so sure they see the priesthood as a gift from the Brethren. They probably see it as something that has already been withheld from them too long and they are asking for what is rightly theirs.For instance, Dr. King gave a speech in Detroit a few months before the March on Washington, in which he "tested" some of the lines he would make famous later that summer. In Detroit, he didn't say, "Well, if you ever happen to think we deserve equality, we'll be happy to receive your gift." He made a "demand" on the bank of justice. He went further to say, "We want all of our rights, we want them here, and we want them now." In short, he demanded and pouted for his ice cream because he felt entitled to it.Perhaps, the members of OW feel the same way. I know that I would.Dr. king is a poor comparison. Bottom line, you can't make demands of God
rockpond Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Perhaps reviewing the institute manual "Teachings of the Living Prophets" and the Priesthood chapter of the Church Handbook Part B would be helpful. I don't see how you can reconcile the teachings in those readings with your position on women and the priesthoodI think you've likely made an incorrect assumption about my position on women and the priesthood. If you think I'm a supporter of the OW movement, you are incorrect.
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 People fast and pray about similar issues all the time and get different answers... you seem to be asserting the answer being referred to by Rockpond would be an impossible outcome from prayer and fasting?Or did I miss something?I also don't think that the Lord is going to tell Rockpond one thing and someone else the opposite. It's the same concept spoken about by Moroni in chapter 10 of the book of Mormon. Book Mormon is true, and any man or woman who sincerely asks The Lord to know the truth with a humble heart Will receive a witness the power of the Holy Ghost that is true. Despite the fact that people say they have prayed and received a witness that it is not true, it still is true, and God wouldn't give different people conflicting answers.
rockpond Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Rock, sometimes I get the feeling that if an angel came to you and told you that current doctrine on women and the priesthood-or a couple other precepts that have been discussed here-was correct, you would ask for a second or third witness. Could current doctrine change? I suppose. Is it likely to? Probably a lot less likely than you think. Is it the current, accepted, settled doctrine of the Lord's church right now? No doubt about it. What's the old line from more than one song? "There are none so blind as those who will not see".It depends on whether or not the angel speaks for the Lord. Honestly, I don't have strong feelings either way about the ordination of women. But it's not productive to say "we all know" that the Lord only wants men to be ordained. It just creates more animosity. What I do know is that much of our doctrine is (to quote Charles Harrel) "provisional and heuristic" by nature of our belief in living prophets and continuing revelation. 2
jchristopher Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Took the class and I have copies of the handbooks. Are you suggesting that those are your bullet-proof, convincing arguments that will bring everyone up to speed on what "we all know"? I'm suggesting that what is taught in that material about the organization of the Church, namely the Priesthood, and the roles of these priesthood leaders, makes it clear that 1) The Lord organized the Priesthood the way he wanted it, and 2) we are to follow his prophets, seers, and revelators counsel as they are the Lord's watchmen. We should never actively oppose the policies of the church or the official declarations or counsel of the general authorities assuming we know the Lord's will better than them. Remember, the Lord has chosen them to be his spokesmen. You really think the first presidency and the twelve are not in step with the Lord on something as fundamental as this issue?
stemelbow Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Dr. king is a poor comparison. Bottom line, you can't make demands of God Anybody can. Do you think God can't take it? Often people get discouraged or feel slighted on the big scale. When this happens some of these people demand God set things right, or demand He help them. So obviously people can make demands of God. Demanding God help with an issue that we're trying to fight through on earth doesn't seem bad. 1
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