There is ony one true God

[Jon Haugo]

Migs:

"Mormons" believe that a restoration has taken place, which includes both the restoring of ancient truths. But we also believe that further truth has been revealed in these latter days, truths which may have not been known to humankind before.

There is something else to consider as well. This isn't about restoring something that Scripture is silent about. It is contradicting what Scripture says. Remember, we do have the O.T. that Jews had and what Jesus quoted. AND JESUS NEVER "RESTORES" THESE LOST TRUTHS. He never teaches multiple Gods contra the O.T.

BCSpace,

There are places in the O.T. where Jesus is called "YH-W-H" and El. There are places in the O.T. where the Father is called both as well. We Evangelicals believe that the doctrine of the Trinity expalins the issues you have raised.

Thank you

Jon

[johnny]

BCSpace  writes,

The OT is clear that other real and divine Gods exist. For example, besides the 'us' in Genesis, there is also the Most High (EL) giving Yahweh (Jehovah) his portion in Deuteronomy 32. Two Gods!

Clearly not two Gods ... see the following threads for further discussion

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...=0entry144865 # the 'us' in Genesis

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...45entry110010 # Deuteronomy 32

So we see that the Ten Commandments distinguishes between real and divine Gods that do exist and fake idol gods just like 1 Cor 8:4-6 does.

The distinction is between the "one God" and those that are "called gods" (1Cor 8:4-6).

John 1:1 Jesus is God (as per Isa 9:6 etc. we know that Jesus is Jehovah).

John 20:17 Jesus (who is Jehovah) has a God.

Two Gods!

One God! ... Jesus is the only Son of the Father and he is God himself, Jesus is the Son of God

Even the first orthodox Christians and the later Christian apologists knew this! Would you like to see those quotes too? They are numerous.

See the following thread to see the quotes of the Early Church Fathers and how they taught their is one God.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=4954&st=0

Thus, the only correct interpretation of verses like those found in Isa 42 and 44 is the LDS one and hence it is not possible to find any single Bible verse or combination thereof in support of the trinity theory.

The LDS interpretation is simply not supported by the Old or New Testament.

Btw, the Biblical doctrine of Theosis also supports the fact that there are many real and divine Gods as that is how they are (and will continue to be) made.

It supports the fact that their are many sons of God ... their is only one God.

[RebAvomai]

Here is another one: She says that I Chronicles 29:20,23 give evidence that Y-hw-h was manifested in human form because it says that the people "bowed low and fell prostrate before the Lord and the king." She interpretes that as the people WORSHIPED both p.36

BS'D

Shalom Jon,

This example is exactly what I had suspicions of. Does she delve into the Hebrew grammar here? And if so, to what depth?

[doodle]

QUOTE (RebAvomai @ Dec 23 2004, 10:34 AM)

...

God the Father is God

Jesus Christ is God

Holy Spirit is God.

1+1+1=3

Hmm....

Well maybe it's 1x1x1=1 Like the first presidency - three men make up what is titled the first presidency, they all have the title of President. Three people make up what we call God, all three have the title of God the and authority. Just a thought.

[Paul Osborne]

Well maybe it's 1x1x1=1

[hooberus]

Earlier I stated:

The Old Testament teaches that there is only one true God on earth and in heaven, besides him there is no true God. (please limit discussion to Old Testament verses).

Several verses were listed such as:

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

I don't feel that these verses have been adequately dealt with.

[Paul Osborne]

Earlier I stated:

The Old Testament teaches that there is only one true God on earth and in heaven, besides him there is no true God. (please limit discussion to Old Testament verses).

Several verses were listed such as:

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

I don't feel that these verses have been adequately dealt with.

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that JEHOVAH IS THE SAVIOR; THERE IS NO OTHER SAVIOR OTHER THAN HIM. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that JEHOVAH IS THE SAVIOR in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is NO OTHER SAVIOR. Deuteronomy 4:39

There is only ONE Savior. Don't look for another one because there isn't one. The Lord has made that perfectly clear.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

Ancient Israel looked to the LORD for salvation. Jehovah is the only Savior to all mankind and is a member of the Godhead. There is no other Savior beside Jehovah, period! The New Testament, in no uncertain terms, makes it perfectly clear that the only Savior is really Jesus Christ. To deny the fact that Jehovah is Christ is to deny Christ as the Savior!

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" (Isa 43:11)

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (1 John 4:14)

Paul O

[hooberus]

While I agree that the Bible does teach that there is no Savior besides the LORD, there is also the teaching that there is no God besides him.

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

[mnn727]

I don't feel that these verses have been adequately dealt with

Perhaps you'd care to deal with the fact that YOU are not allowed to decide which of Gods words to believe and which to ignore.

[hooberus]

mnn727 if you like you are welcome to start your own threads, however this one is on the Old Testament teachings on God.

Do you have anything to say about verses such as:

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

[Paul Osborne]

While I agree that the Bible does teach that there is no Savior besides the LORD, there is also the teaching that there is no God besides him.

The O.T. declares Jehovah is the ONLY divine Savior. That doesn

[Paul Osborne]

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that JESUS CHRIST is God the Savior in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Paul O

[Samurai Jack]

Margaret Barker is used by Mormons quite a bit because she is a non-Mormon and she is the non-Mormon "scholar" who believes in the polytheistic heritage of the Old Testament. Without her the Mormons pretty much stand on their own in the belief of a Jewish polytheistic past.

What about Karen Armstrong, author of "History of God"? I seem to remember her book argued for early polytheistic Hebrews which had their scriptures edited by the later monotheists. She's not Mormon.

My guess is that Mormons would not use Armstrong's book because it would also contradict the LDS claim for a literal interpretation of the Bible...especially such important stories such as Adam and Eve, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc.

But my point is that Mormons do not stand alone in their view of a Jewish polytheistic past. They are just alone among Christians, Jews, and Muslims. They would probably find many secular scholars that agree with them on that particular point.

[mnn727]

mnn727 if you like you are welcome to start your own threads, however this one is on the Old Testament teachings on God

I think its telling that you refuse to answer my question. which is: "What gives YOU the right to choose which of Gods words you will believe and which you will ignore?"

Also, I don't see you listed as the moderator.

Now why don't you answer my question.

[BCSpace]

While I agree that the Bible does teach that there is no Savior besides the LORD, there is also the teaching that there is no God besides him.

Your interpretation of those verses makes the Bible contradict itself. It is already well established that Jesus is Jehovah, the Mighty God mentioned in Isa 9:6.

The Bible also clearly establishes that Jehovah (Jesus Christ) Himself has a God as per his own admission in John 20:17.

[Jon Haugo]

Shalom Rabbi,

This example is exactly what I had suspicions of. Does she delve into the Hebrew grammar here? And if so, to what depth?

I actually don't have the book but a book (The New Mormon Challenge) that cites her book. Very well done. The book says on page 304 "But this reading is excluded by the previous lines, which Barker neglects to cite: 'Then David said to the whole assemply, 'Praise the LORD your God.' So they all praised the Lord, the God of their fathers.' Clearly, although they worshiped in David's presence, it was the Lord who was the object of their praises" - End of quote. pg. 304

I don't believe that she got into the Hebrew very much, but as we can see a person doesn't need to know Hebrew to know that she comes up lacking. I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying the things that I did but she is (or claims to be) a Protestant and by taking such a bold step without even checking the context and performing the most basic steps that a child would be expected to make, I am especially critical.

Hello again Samurai Jack,

Good to hear from you again as well. You might be able to find an obscure source but again there is such a lopsided amount of scholars through the centuries that know of the Old Testament foundation of Monotheism that to come up anything else without the most basic of study is wrong. There might be a few out there but I SUSPECT (I don't know for sure) that the author you mentioned was as ignorant of Scripture as Barker. To me Samurai Jack, when someone quotes Barker with the lack of scholarship that she used, is like quoting Gene Scott, Benny Hinn, or Geraldo Rivera. You would admit that the kind of mistakes that she makes would cause anyone to doubt her. Mormons would not give her the time of day if she was Monotheistic. Mormons would rightfully discount us if we ever mentioned her (if she was monotheistic) in a discussion.

I will be gone for a few days. My wife is finally coming back from Hong Kong. Her mother passed away but she accepted Christ a couple of months before she died. She has been gone for about 6 weeks. We have been married since last October 28th. I really miss her and I will see her tomorrow night I therefore must gladly leave this thread and board for a while.

Take Care everyone!!

Sincerely

Jon

[hooberus]

I think its telling that you refuse to answer my question. which is: "What gives YOU the right to choose which of Gods words you will believe and which you will ignore?"

Your question reflects a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of my reasons for sticking to Old Testament verses in this specific thread.

[hooberus]

Re: Jehovah/Jesus:

I am not arguing that Jesus is not Jehovah.

[Tanyan]

BC and Hooberus, don't let our Catholic friend/critic johnny read this he believes that JESUS is "NOT" Jehovah, but the "FATHER" is "Jehovah" ALONE.

[johnny]

Tanyan

[Samurai Jack]

[Pelagoram]

I

[USU78]

Jack quoth: "Armstrong analyzes the OT by looking at what she believes are different Hebrew writers...whom she calls "J" (from Judah) and "E" (from Israel)...and whom she believes wrote at about 800 BC. She compares those texts to "D" (the Deuteronomist) who wrote after 700 BC, and notes the apparant differences in theology."

The origin of this "J" and "E" sources is in the parallel creation stories in Genesis. "J" actually refers to JHWH, while "E" refers to El-him. It is not impossible, indeed may be quite likely that Moses [or somebody else] compiled old records in generating the first four books of the Torah. The 5th book is usually equated with the book allegedly found by Hulda and Hilkiah in the Temple [as reported in II Kings 22-23, which was the springboard for the Josian rededication of Judah. This is a critical time in the history of Judah -- at the time of the Assyrian ascendency and just prior to the Babylonian conquest of the Levant -- in which, if you read the Tanakh from a certain point of view, the Jews were being spiritually prepared for their lives in captivity and their survival as a distinct people through their religious zeal.

Many scholars believe this is the beginning of the anti-Asherah movement, in which the worship of the Heavenly Mother [consort to JHWH or El-him or the both of them conflated], as well as more direct reference to the Messiah were excised by the priestly reformers from scripture and from public life.

[hooberus]

I think that it should be noted that the JEDP theory and similar beliefs (such as that advocated by Barker) tend to deny either the inspiration, preservation, (or both) of portions of the Old Testament. So I don't think that such concepts are a very sound source for those who claim to believe the Bible as being God's word.