There is ony one true God

[RebAvomai]

BS'D

Shalom

I

[1dc]

. . Jesus was true God and true Man. . . You and I are sinners which would imply that . . God was a sinner just like you and I.

Seems like more double-speak. Either the above applies from your words or you add negative implications to Joseph's expressions where you want and exclude them from yours where you want. I don't think you believe this, but if you were fair you would use the same logic on your own words.

Rhetorically, where do such negative implications come from?

[1dc]

Also, elohim (God) is plural

Again the suffix of "Im" does not always detonate plurality. Like Echad, this is a common misconception. You have to look at the verbs in the sentance to get the correct meaning. When Elokim is reffered to G-d, hundreads of times, the verbs are all singular ( There are only about 7 exceptions to this rule ).

Are then are those 7 times explained?

Perhaps the original poster should have said something like . . Elohim can be plural.

Generally for LDS the term is used to refer to the Father (singular).

As a related question, how would you say Israelites would relate God and the expected Messiah? Same person or being?

[johnny]

1dc writes,

Seems like more double-speak. Either the above applies from your words or you add negative implications to Joseph's expressions where you want and exclude them from yours where you want. I don't think you believe this, but if you were fair you would use the same logic on your own words.

Would you agree that Mormonism teaches that our Heavenly Father

- was once a man like us

- became a God

Would you agree that you and I are sinners?

Would you conclude that Mormonism teaches that our Heavenly Father was once a sinner who became a God, if not then could you explain your reasoning?

Can a Holy God sin?

[tlclark]

So what to people think about the idea that before King Josiah the Israelites were not strict monotheists? That Sherem might have been a Deuteronomist?

Actually, Barker's thesis goes quite beyond that. By the first Century AD we still aren't certain if Jews were strict monotheists. Her book "The Great Angel" argues that the Christians were tapping into this latent belief in multiple dieties.

Judaism as we know it spawns from the fifth century AD, long after the establishment of Christianity.

Travis

[tlclark]

Let's throw this on its head a bit.

I am well aware of the distinctions that separate RC and EC conceptions of the Trinity from the Mormon concept (although the difference is not as large as some would believe)

What I would like to know -- and this is an honest question here, not just baiting --

What exactly distinguishes the EV and BAC concept of the Trinity from Modalism?

Travis

[johnny]

tlclark writes,

I am well aware of the distinctions that separate RC and EC conceptions of the Trinity from the Mormon concept (although the difference is not as large as some would believe)

One God verses three Gods sounds like a large difference to me ...

[RebAvomai]

BS'D

Shalom,

Are then are those 7 times explained?

Within Jewish tradtion they are, or rather, debated.

Perhaps the original poster should have said something like . .

[USU78]

BS'D

Shalom,

Are then are those 7 times explained?

Within Jewish tradtion they are, or rather, debated.

Perhaps the original poster should have said something like . .

[grapevine]

The Old Testament teaches that there is only one true God on earth and in heaven, besides him there is no true God. (please limit discussion to Old Testament verses).

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:2-3

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exodus 34:14

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Deuteronomy 10:14

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath. Josuha 2:11

There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 1 Samuel 2:2

Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2 Samuel 7:22

For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2 Samuel 22:32

That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else. 1 Kings 8:59-60

And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. LORD, bow down thine ear, and hear: open, LORD, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent him to reproach the living God. Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria have destroyed the nations and their lands, And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them. Now therefore, O LORD our God, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD God, even thou only. 2 Kings 19:15-19

O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20

And said, O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts: 2 Chronicles 6:14

Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. Nehemiah 9:6

All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone. Psalm 86:9-10

For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. Psalm 96:5

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isaiah 44:6-8

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isaiah 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:5-6

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:21-22

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. Jeremiah 10:10

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Hosea 13:4

if the bible is all there is that you are using then there is a defect in the book. For where does it say that is all there is.

[Samurai Jack]

...

[johnny]

Samurai Jack  writes,

I don't believe God was once a man, but I will give you two hypothetical answers

I also don't believe God was once a man ... enjoyed your scenarios ... below are more scenarios

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=158645

[dragonslayer]

Would you agree that Mormonism teaches that our Heavenly Father

- was once a man like us

- became a God

Would you agree that you and I are sinners?

Would you conclude that Mormonism teaches that our Heavenly Father was once a sinner who became a God, if not then could you explain your reasoning?

Can a Holy God sin?

I don't believe God was once a man, but I will give you two hypothetical answers:

Scenario A:

When Elohim was a man, he sinned. He repented and was pardoned of all sins by the Christ of his world.

He married in a Temple, so he and his wife were exalted and became gods.

As a God, in His exalted state, He is free of sin, because He was saved by the Christ of his world.

So while God does not sin, He sinned in the past and was saved.

And there's more...

Logically, Elohim and the Christ of his world are co-heirs of their Father. So Elohim created our world, and his own son, who is a different Christ. Meanwhile the OTHER CHRIST, his brother and co-heir, has created a different world and his own son who is a different Christ.

Of course, that assumes that every world will have a Christ.

Scenario B:

What if every world did not have a Christ?

There might be another world out there that has a Father who gives no Free Agency.

What if Elohim lived on such a world? What if Elohim did not have Free Agency in his mortal life, because his Father God did not give Free Agency?

In that case Elohim never sinned. He just followed all the rules as directed (having no Free Agency) and was exalted to become our Father God.

For all we know, we might be living in the first world to ever have Free Agency, and therefore the first world to have a Christ.

Interesting...

Just passing by, but scenario A sounds a little out of sync.

It would mean Jesus is greater than God: Jesus did not sin, God did.

Unless of course you think Jesus sinned.

[Tetraforce]

dragonslayer is right. Remember its Kenosis. JS taught that God's humanity was like Jesus'.

[Samurai Jack]

So scenario B must be true!

I just figured out the secrets of the universe!

[RebAvomai]

And the Moshiach ben Joseph?

BS'D

Shalom,

Moshiach ben Yosef is a Midrashic teaching paradigm used by Talmudic Rabbis when they discuss "Messianic Matters" so to speak.

What I remember off the top of my head about ben Yosef is that he is of the tribe of Ephraim, lives at the same time as ben Dovid and is slain in battle, but later raised ben ben Dovid.

[1dc]

Would you agree that you and I are sinners?

Can a Holy God sin?

As in mortal humans? Yes.

I don't think a Holy God sins and am surprised you are crass enough to ask such a question. The fair question is can a sinner repent and be exalted. Jesus already showed us that humans can be exalted. I thought all Christians understood what His sacrifice was for, but maybe you've shown me a new side of other Christians . . every other Catholic I've met understood Christ sacrificed to purify us from our sins.

If you want to believe God made you as an animal rather than a child and heir like the Bible says, that's OK with me. You can believe whatever interpretations you think are more biblical and reject God's gifts if you don't have faith in Christ's sacrifice.

[1dc]

It would mean Jesus is greater than God: Jesus did not sin, God did.

Or unless you thnk a person who has repented and been purified is not less than one who has never sinned . .

[johnny]

1dc  writes,

I don't think a Holy God sins and am surprised you are crass enough to ask such a question. The fair question is can a sinner repent and be exalted. Jesus already showed us that humans can be exalted. I thought all Christians understood what His sacrifice was for, but maybe you've shown me a new side of other Christians . . every other Catholic I've met understood Christ sacrificed to purify us from our sins.

I would agree that a sinner can be exalted. You are missing my point in Mormonism was God the Father a sinner before he became God?

If you want to believe God made you as an animal rather than a child and heir like the Bible says, that's OK with me. You can believe whatever interpretations you think are more biblical and reject God's gifts if you don't have faith in Christ's sacrifice. 

God is the creator and humans his creation. Men can be heirs but first they must become adopted sons of God.

[1dc]

Are then are those 7 times explained?

Within Jewish tradtion they are, or rather, debated.

In Jewish Theology, the Moshiach ben Dovid ( Annointed son of David ) is a mortal man.

Hmmm. Forgot to preface with the word How . .

And Jews thought the Messiah was always exected to remain a mortal?

[King Pagan]

God is the creator and humans his creation. Men can be heirs but first they must become adopted sons of God.

Become adopted? Are you now saying that we we are stepsons?

What about the girls?

[1dc]

You are missing my point in Mormonism was God the Father a sinner before he became God?

I don't think you have a point, you only seem to exhibit a negative attitude on the words you've read. As far as I know, you are the only person to suggest that anyone actually meant that in their teachings. By like us, I presume JS meant flesh and blood as Jesus was before he was resurrected to flesh and bone. By like us I presume JS meant His sacrifice can bridge the gap between us and Jesus . .

[johnny]

King Pagan  writes,

Become adopted? Are you now saying that we we are stepsons?

I am saying this is what the Bible reveals ...

[Alexander]

What about the girls?

Hello? Remember the rib in Gen?

[King Pagan]

King Pagan  writes,

Become adopted? Are you now saying that we we are stepsons?

I am saying this is what the Bible reveals ...

Are you SURE that we are using the same bible? How is it that two people can read the same thing and come to two completely different understandings?