The Stumbling Blocks Of The Church

[stemelbow]

Stemelbow. The church's marital practices were not enough, IMO, to warrant the vitriol and constant movement that the saints faced long before polygamy. Ironically, a christian movement called the Oneida society started in NY only a few years after the commencement of Mormonism that was far more extreme in their sexual practices and relational beliefs. They broke apart over time....but did so from external harassment and internal conflict over practices rather than the overt force and skirmishes faced by the LDS members of that time. Again they practiced free love (that their leader helped orchestrate) and a commune society starting in the late 1840's not too far from where the LDS faith started up and then died because of generational conflict and a comparative slap on the wrist from the mayor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneida_Society). The LDS faith practiced polygamy and had their leader assassinated and another forced move across the wilderness (following three others, one including an extermination order by a state...before polygamy was an open topic/problem). I'm going to wager that these actions stemmed from far more problems than just polygamy.  

 

 

 

With luv,

BD

 

Hey I agree--and I liked your post above too.

 

I might be failing in my communications.  For that I apologize.  I too think there are many factors that led to JS' death.  I too think opposition arose before polygamy became an issue and it would have been around if there were no polygamy whatsoever. 

 

I am saying, though, as it turned out polygamy was a big factor in establishing the press and The Mormon expositor.  Without polygamy perhaps Laws' opposition wouldn't have been so strong.  And there would be no such press to destroy, which was the reason JS was jailed.  And while in jail the mob rose to such a frenzy they killed him. 

[Coreyb]

I would speculate (since we are all speculating here anyway) that D&C 132 (the section that discusses polygamy) is responsible for the bulk of the growth of the church.  With out the doctrines found in that revelation, our church would be a shadow of what it is now.

Agreed, we get most of our investigators out of our doctrine of eternal marriage. We just usually don't tell them that it includes plural marriage. I did as a missionary though, and if you are upfront about it, it bothers a lot less people. In my experience, polygamy bothers lifelong members who didn't really know much about it than converts who have heard about Mormon polygamy and probably asked about the first or second time they talked to a missionary.

[BlueDreams]

I am saying, though, as it turned out polygamy was a big factor in establishing the press and The Mormon expositor.  Without polygamy perhaps Laws' opposition wouldn't have been so strong.  And there would be no such press to destroy, which was the reason JS was jailed.  And while in jail the mob rose to such a frenzy they killed him. 

 

That makes sense. I would also agree with that.

 

But to me, polygamy is the cherry on the top in concern of early problems for the saints and largely superfluous for current issues with our faith now. Smith had been arrested multiple times before then, tensions with neighboring populations had been high and continued to follow them. I'd agree that polygamy was a main topic when the press was destroyed, leading to treason allegations, which then led to his death. But that some sort of trumped up allegations of any sort, probably would have gotten him in jail and led to his death. Mobs aren't known for reasonable ethos. Basically, I'm saying with or without polygamy, you probably would have gotten the same results....in part because of its large and successful growth. Where oneida stayed small and fairly obscure, the church was expanding rapidly and becoming a major force/influence wherever they went. They were largely uniform in ideological views and were generally outsiders to the immediate population. Plus they actively proselyted a new gospel message never heard of before then with a new book, new prophet, new leadership structure, and a heavy tenacity to flourish wherever they landed. They wouldn't have made easy friends with the powers that be in thes places (Religious, political, and social leaders of their time).

 

I'm basically saying that polygamy was just a new figurehead for an old problem that wouldn't go away. In fact it couldn't because it was tied directly to the growth of the population....the thing that polygamy was supposed to damper. 

 

 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited December 13, 2013 by BlueDreams

[stemelbow]

Agreed, we get most of our investigators out of our doctrine of eternal marriage. We just usually don't tell them that it includes plural marriage. I did as a missionary though, and if you are upfront about it, it bothers a lot less people. In my experience, polygamy bothers lifelong members who didn't really know much about it than converts who have heard about Mormon polygamy and probably asked about the first or second time they talked to a missionary.

 

I've noticed polygamy can be such a bother to long-time members because it surprises them when they learn how it was practiced, rather than that it was practiced. After investigators turn LDS and stick around for a while learning some fo the details, I'm guessing, would be difficult for them too. 

[Coreyb]

Could be, but the converts I know tend to assume the worst to begin with while the life-longers tend to assume the best and give the benefit of the doubt, which often leads to disappointment. I guess I was lucky, my Dad told me about polyandry and young wives when I was a child.   I figured everybody knew about it until I had companions who didn't even know Brigham was a polygamist.

[thesometimesaint]

I think when we get into the nitty-gritty details of how marriage is practiced, even in our modern day society. Few would want to be married. But we do it anyway. Thinking that maybe it will somehow qualitative different for us.

[Coreyb]

My girlfriend wouldn't appreciate you discouraging me from marriage

[thesometimesaint]

My girlfriend wouldn't appreciate you discouraging me from marriage

 

Another good man bites the dust.

[Avatar4321]

Thousands of men, women, and children would never have been born without polygamy.

 

And the FLDS may have been founded on the philosophies of our early prophets, but they left those philosophies long ago.  The FLDS church does not have the market on polygamy, and you need to make sure that you don't equate the two as if one equals the other.  That doesn't do anyone any good.

 

Just look at the other off-shoot polygamy churches which also come from the teachings of early LDS prophets and see how incredibly different they are from the FLDS (and each other sometimes) to see how simply having polygamy in common does not mean that polygamy is at fault for every evil that exists in the FLDS church.  

 

The problem with the polygamy groups like the FLDS is that they make polygamy their religious hobby and completely ignore everything else the Lord restored. Where are their missionaries going out into the world and preaching the Gospel? Where is their priesthood power as defined in D&C 121? They are extremely coersive. They demonstrate unrighteous dominion to the extreme Prophets like Brigham Young were warning the Saints about.

[Avatar4321]

Either of those issues can be a stumbling block to joining the Church. But I don't think that makes them bad. Christ is a stumbling block to many. Should we eliminate the doctrines of Christ just to make ourselves more pleasing to the world? Would we be much bigger or less if we did so?

 

I don't believe we would be much bigger and stronger as a Church without these. My opinion, but I don't see how the Lord would prosper our missionary efforts if we disobeyed Him. And we dont have to worry about selling the restoration to people. Our job is to open our mouth, He is the one responsible for the convincing part.