Reformed Egyptian

[cdowis]

Decades ago Dr. Nibley said that there was evidence that the characters on the Anton Transcript resembled Meriotic Egyptian.  Has anyone heard of anything since then?

[cinepro]

I don't see it:
 

 
 

 
 
 
This blog is an interesting look at the Anthon "caractors":
 
http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/01/the-anthon-transcript
 
 
 

Are the letters “reformed hieroglyphics”?
 
Given that I place the Anthon Transcript’s alphabet firmly within the visual & stylistic tradition of arbitrary-loaded shorthands (which themselves all ultimately derive from Jeremiah Rich’s mid-seventeenth century shorthand system, even if the Anthon Transcript’s text is apparently not written in a shorthand system), I have to say that I am at a loss to see any conceivable connection with hieroglyphics (or even with Demotic, for that matter).
 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Are the letter-shapes all fake?
 
I don’t think so: to my eyes, they do give the impression of forming a moderately coherent set of “characters” copied from one or more existing shorthand documents, but with child-like cipher shapes added, very probably to give the whole thing slightly more of an ‘exotic’ feel. More than anything else, I think it is this awkward blend of the nuanced and the naive that makes it seem unconvincing as a real piece of text.
 
Because the ratio of arbitraries to simple strokes also seems quite high to my eyes, I would also be unsurprised if the author had cherry-picked the interesting-looking letter-shapes from a shorthand source.
 
 
In summary, probably the least controversial inference you can draw from the lettershapes is their post-1650 dating: the embellished “H” shape and the probable links with Rich-family shorthand letter-shapes indicate that this is in no way ancient.
In the absence of any other credible information, the most likely story I can reconstruct is that the “caractors” in the Anthon Transcript were copied in no particular order from a shorthand Bible (or possibly a shorthand diary), with various other letter-shapes added to make the overall alphabet look more ‘exotic’, or even ”hieroglyphic” (even though, to our modern eyes, these singularly fail to have the desired effect). I would also be fairly unsurprised if the same shorthand Bible itself was subsequently used as a prop to convince skeptics – in short, that this was the Detroit Manuscript itself (but which, like the rest of the Anthon Transcript, subsequently disappeared from sight).

Edited November 6, 2013 by cinepro

[jkwilliams]

Thanks for the link, cinepro. I don't know what to make of the Anthon transcript, not having a background in different scripts or shorthands or characters. As I mentioned in another thread, Joseph Smith made a fascinating attempt in 1835 to translate specific characters into Hebrew, along with their English representation. I don't know what to make of that, either.

[AndyDnom]

I don't think its disputed that the "Charactors" document showed above is real. Do the folks here on this board think that those characters were actually present on the Golden Plates?

I know the LDS church published a gold book of mormon with the charactors on its gold cover.

[cdowis]

cinepro,  Thanks. 

 

During his class presentation he held a comparison chart, but I don't know where to find it.  Aroud minute 12:30

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kQAB-fmPk

 

Also, I understand there is some discussion whether the Anton Transcript is the original, since the description of the characters are different from the transcript.

Edited November 7, 2013 by cdowis

[thesometimesaint]

I don't think its disputed that the "Charactors" document showed above is real. Do the folks here on this board think that those characters were actually present on the Golden Plates?

I know the LDS church published a gold book of mormon with the charactors on its gold cover.

 

Mine is black.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't think its disputed that the "Charactors" document showed above is real. Do the folks here on this board think that those characters were actually present on the Golden Plates?

I know the LDS church published a gold book of mormon with the charactors on its gold cover.

Not sure. I am not even sure the history of this document. I mean how do we know those are the "caractors" that were really copied down? (Or made up if you are a non believer).

[cdowis]

The Community of Christ possesses the handwritten slip of paper known as the Anthon Transcript. David Whitmer, who once owned the document, stated that it was this slip of paper that Martin Harris showed to Charles Anthon, as noted above.Both Mormon apologists and critics, however, claim that it is not certain that the document is the original, since Anthon had mentioned that the characters on the slip he saw were arranged in vertical columns and ended in a "rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Aztec calendar given by Humboldt," (1834) or "a rude representation of the Mexican zodiac" (1841).^[11] The symbols on the document were published twice in 1844, after Joseph Smith's death, as characters that had been copied from the gold plates, one of them in the December 21 issue of The Prophet.^[9]

 

Wiki

[rick7475]

Then there is the Carl Hugh Jones article and the Mesoamerican artifacts:

 

"The Anthon Transcript and Two Mesoamerican Cylinder Seals".

 

 

[Tiki]

The Community of Christ possesses the handwritten slip of paper known as the Anthon Transcript. David Whitmer, who once owned the document, stated that it was this slip of paper that Martin Harris showed to Charles Anthon, as noted above.Both Mormon apologists and critics, however, claim that it is not certain that the document is the original, since Anthon had mentioned that the characters on the slip he saw were arranged in vertical columns and ended in a "rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Aztec calendar given by Humboldt," (1834) or "a rude representation of the Mexican zodiac" (1841).^[11] The symbols on the document were published twice in 1844, after Joseph Smith's death, as characters that had been copied from the gold plates, one of them in the December 21 issue of The Prophet.^[9]

Wiki

Let's see. Do we trust David Whitmer? Or Charles Anthon?

Apparently, Mormon Apologetics and critics trusted the Learned Ph.D. especially since the learned Ph.D claimed The Prophet Joseph was a plagiarizer of Mesoamerica Zodiac Calendars, because the Learned Ph.D could read unsealed books by Humboldt, while Joseph Smith was given, by the Gift and Power of God to interpret a language not known to any other people (Mormon 9:34).

Don't you just love them Mormon Apologetics for siding with Charles Anthon? Anything for Mesoamerica sake.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Tiki

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't see it:

 

 

 

You might want to take a look at http://www.meroiticdatabase.com/, or http://www.google.com/search?q=meroitic&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=7fh9UqHiBorlrgHiqYCgBw&ved=0CDwQsAQ&biw=1076&bih=713 .

 

That might give you a better basis for comparison.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Community of Christ possesses the handwritten slip of paper known as the Anthon Transcript. David Whitmer, who once owned the document, stated that it was this slip of paper that Martin Harris showed to Charles Anthon, as noted above.Both Mormon apologists and critics, however, claim that it is not certain that the document is the original, since Anthon had mentioned that the characters on the slip he saw were arranged in vertical columns and ended in a "rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Aztec calendar given by Humboldt," (1834) or "a rude representation of the Mexican zodiac" (1841).^[11] The symbols on the document were published twice in 1844, after Joseph Smith's death, as characters that had been copied from the gold plates, one of them in the December 21 issue of The Prophet.^[9]

 

Wiki

David Whitmer said a lot of things, not all of which were accurate.  Most scholars today reckon that the so-called "Anthon Transcript" was really one of a number of "mementoes" given by Joseph to some of his loyal followers.  David Whitmer may have gotten the thing from Olver Cowdery, but of that we cannot be sure.  It certainly doesn't fit Anthon's description, which is why Mark Hofmann attempted to forge one which did look like the Anthon description.

[Robert F. Smith]

cinepro,  Thanks. 

 

During his class presentation he held a comparison chart, but I don't know where to find it.  Aroud minute 12:30

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kQAB-fmPk

 

Also, I understand there is some discussion whether the Anton Transcript is the original, since the description of the characters are different from the transcript.

He makes a couple of widely separated comments, but you are right about his comments from 11:00 to 13:00 of that video.  One could not see the comparison chart.  It was too small.  But see my post #11 for examples.  Nibley refers to demotic Egyptian as "reformed Egyptian," which was coming into vogue right at the time of Lehi.

 

Anyhow, Nibley referred in his comments to the late Egyptologist Richard Parker at Brown University being visited by Professor Richard Bushman with that so-called "Anthon Transcript."  According to Bushman, Parker commented that it appeared to be a copy of a real document in Egyptian script, but possibly in an unknown language such as Meroitic (Indeed, Hugh Nibley thought many names in the Book of Mormon not only sounded like Meroitic, but that the writing on the Anthon Transcript itself looked "most like Meroitic" (Since Cumorah, CWHN VII:170-171). 

 

In a letter to Marvin W. Cowan, March 22, 1966, Parker also stated that “the signs purportedly from the Book of Mormon . . . could well be the latest form of the written language – demotic characters.”

 

On February 6, 1956, Egyptologist W. C. Hayes provided written notes and comments to Stanley B. Kimball, telling Kimball that it resembled hieratic (Kimball was then a doctoral candidate at Columbia University), and he provided notes to Kimball showing how the first set of characters could be translated as a date formula.  Hayes wrote a letter to Paul M. Hanson of the RLDS Church later that year (June 8, 1956) saying that the Anthon Transcript “could conceivably have been an inaccurate copy of an Egyptian account or something of the sort written in hieratic script.  With some imagination the beginning of the inscription could be taken as a date, and many of the other groups look like hieratic numerals” – quoted in Hanson, “The Transcript from the Plates of the Book of Mormon,” Saints’ Herald, Nov 12, 1956, 6.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

..............................................................................   

 

This blog is an interesting look at the Anthon "caractors":

 

http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2009/06/01/the-anthon-transcript

 

 

 

NIck Pelling (I think that is his name) makes some very perceptive observations on his blog:  

 

". . . they do give the impression of forming a moderately coherent set of “characters” copied from one or more existing shorthand documents, but with child-like cipher shapes added, very probably to give the whole thing slightly more of an ‘exotic’ feel."

 

"Because the ratio of arbitraries to simple strokes also seems quite high to my eyes, I would also be unsurprised if the author had cherry-picked the interesting-looking letter-shapes from a shorthand source."

 

More sophisticated analyses have shown that the "transcript" or memento is very likely written in Egyptian script and is a real, coherent document.

[AndyDnom]

does anyone here think that the symbols on the charactors document are, or could be, symbols that were inscribed on gold plates?

[Robert F. Smith]

does anyone here think that the symbols on the charactors document are, or could be, symbols that were inscribed on gold plates?

Yes.  It is very likely that the mementoes which Joseph gave to his compatriots were copies of "Caractors" from the Book of Mormon plates, but only decipherment could tell us for sure.

[AndyDnom]

Yes.  It is very likely that the mementoes which Joseph gave to his compatriots were copies of "Caractors" from the Book of Mormon plates, but only decipherment could tell us for sure.

 

If this is the case, then, does the caractors document show hebrew or reformed egyptian or what? I'm not to well versed in this area

[rick7475]

N

 

If this is the case, then, does the caractors document show hebrew or reformed egyptian or what? I'm not to well versed in this area

 

No one is sure what characters are on the Anthon Transcript. However, similar characters have been found on Mesoamerican artifacts.

[cinepro]

More sophisticated analyses have shown that the "transcript" or memento is very likely written in Egyptian script and is a real, coherent document.

 

CFR on this.

[cinepro]

For comparison's sake again, here's "pitman's shorthand":

 

 

Edited November 10, 2013 by cinepro

[rick7475]

For comparison's sake again, here's "pitman's shorthand":

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where is the letter by letter comparison like Jones did with the Mesoamerican artifacts?

[AndyDnom]

N

 

 

No one is sure what characters are on the Anthon Transcript. However, similar characters have been found on Mesoamerican artifacts.

 

I would love to see an example of a mesoamerican article with a similar character. Have any links?

[Robert F. Smith]

I would love to see an example of a mesoamerican article with a similar character. Have any links?

Without considering any specific comparisons with the so-called "Anthon Transcript," one might want to consider what Albright considered Egyptian hieroglyphs on cylinder seals from Chiapa de Corzo, as well as the Tlatilco Seal -- which has been declared by non-Mormon scholars to have Old World writing -- and various types of alphabetic script from Olmec times.  See the citations on these in John L. Sorenson, Mormon's Codex (Deseret, 2013), 221-224; cf. 523-524.

 

See Carl Hugh Jones, “The ‘Anthon Transcript’ and Two Mesoamerican Cylinder Seals,” SEHA Newsletter, 122.0 (Sept 1970), 1-8, online at http://www.shields-research.org/General/SEHA/SEHA_Newsletter_122-2.PDF  .

 

Stanley B. Kimball, “Egyptian, Mesoamerican, or Phoenician?” SEHA Newsletter, 126.0 (Aug 1971), 1-5, online at http://www.shields-research.org/General/SEHA/SEHA_Newsletter_126-2.PDF  .

Edited November 11, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

If this is the case, then, does the caractors document show hebrew or reformed egyptian or what? I'm not to well versed in this area

Egyptian script, with the "caractors" facing to the right so as to be read right-to-left, even though the person copying them made his copy left-to-right.  You will note that many of the characters appear in small groups, thus providing a hint as to repeated phrasing.  Moreover, the small character lines and larger character lines are not accidental, but are clearly parts of two separate sections of text being reproduced.  Most scholars have agreed that "reformed Egyptian" represents a late development in the Egyptian script by Nephite scribes 1000 years after the time of Nephi son of Lehi, which makes it difficult to decipher.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

CFR on this.

This is based on my own as yet unpublished analyses, but I'll give an example:  

 

Click on this URL http://hieroglyphes.pagesperso-orange.fr/O/O42.gif = Egyptian šsp , which is O42 in Gardiner’s Sign List, and has a wide range of meaning: “to take, receive; palm (of hand), cubit; white, bright, daylight; statue, image,” etc., depending on determinatives accompanying it.  You may notice that it is sometimes followed in the “AT” by a square black sign, which stands for “p,” which often augments that word.  It is šp in demotic, and šop in Coptic.  That it appears to be more like the hieroglyphic sign than hieratic or demotic indicates that it is likely from an early section of the plates, rather than a later, "reformed Egyptian" section.