New Eden

[ERayR]

There is a crowd which routinely accuses environmentalists of all types of misrepresentations. If you listen exclusively to this group I suspect that you would form a very biased view of what environmentalism involves. For the vast majority of people who consider themselves environmentalists, their approach is merely to advocate for sound stewardship. I have represented major mining companies with regards to environmental issues for many years. The idea that mining and commercial endeavors are necessarily adversarial with environmentalism is counterproductive and it is an attitude that many Saints need to get over. Its bad enough that Utah has some of the worst air quality in America, without someone suggesting that environmentalism is typically inconsistent with LDS doctrine.

 

My point is there is a lot of environmental groups that warrant those accusations. Not sure just what accusations you are alluding to but whatever they are there are some groups that warrant them.

[Stone holm]

My point is there is a lot of environmental groups that warrant those accusations. Not sure just what accusations you are alluding to but whatever they are there are some groups that warrant them.

Yes, I saw your list and I disagree.

[ERayR]

Yes, I saw your list and I disagree.

 

The list was in no wise complete.

Edited October 20, 2013 by ERayR

[Stone holm]

The list was in no wise complete.

Although there are a few extremist environmental groups, your lis is much too broad. A few environmentalists border on being nature worshipers they are a minority, most and the typical are merely advocating wise stewardship which is clearly consistent with our religious beliefs. To suggest that typically they are profit motivated is a gross misrepresentation, but their opponents are in fact frequently looking at short term profits.

[thesometimesaint]

I give BC credit for being an intelligent fellow and coming to his conclusions by evaluating the evidence.  I also have given you that same consideration but the above statement indicates I may have been in error on the latter.

 

BCSpace is a very intelligent fellow, at least when he agree's with me.

Edited October 20, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[Stone holm]

My point is there is a lot of environmental groups that warrant those accusations. Not sure just what accusations you are alluding to but whatever they are there are some groups that warrant them.

I have worked with economic development in two States now. One had almost no environmental conscience and the other is probably the most environmentally conscious State in the Union. In only one case do I recall some truly misguided and questionable environmentalist tactics, on the other hand, I have witnessed a plenitude of dirty tricks played by industrialists. I have no sympathy for either. I spend a large percentage of my professional life working to make sure that we progress commercially in an environmentally appropriate way. Without the environmentalist community out there advocating, I shudder to think what might happen, they are our environmental conscience which forces us to think before we act. That is altogether consistent with LDS stewardship concepts.

[CV75]

Could trying to restore Eden or building up Zion be a way for Mormonism to get a handle on environmentalism

If by "environmentalism" you mean "the philosophical doctrine that environment is more important than heredity in determining intellectual growth," then no; but if you mean "techniques to ensure the preservation, restoration, or improvement of the natural environment," then yes. But I don't think such inspired stewardship would be segregated from any other Gospel obligation or responsibility, and we would not focus on or advocate for an "-ism" unto itself.

[thesometimesaint]

If by "environmentalism" you mean "the philosophical doctrine that environment is more important than heredity in determining intellectual growth," then no; but if you mean "techniques to ensure the preservation, restoration, or improvement of the natural environment," then yes. But I don't think such inspired stewardship would be segregated from any other Gospel obligation or responsibility, and we would not focus on or advocate for an "-ism" unto itself.

 

If you put Einstein in a closet you'd still get a man with a lot of hangups. That being said the environment gives about one standard deviation(10 IQ points spred) in its calcution.

[CV75]

If you put Einstein in a closet you'd still get a man with a lot of hangups. That being said the environment gives about one standard deviation(10 IQ points spred) in its calcution.

If you put Einstein in a closet you'd still get a man with a lot of hangers.

[Maidservant]

Create a working definition of environmentalism for the purposes of this thread and also the opportunity to rebut the working definition.  I think you will find that very few are on the same page as to that working definition, so answering a secondary question, as in, is it compatible with LDS doctrine is going to be nigh to impossible (in terms of this thread; everyone has the opportunity to answer it for themselves in terms of their own life).

[Stone holm]

Create a working definition of environmentalism for the purposes of this thread and also the opportunity to rebut the working definition.  I think you will find that very few are on the same page as to that working definition, so answering a secondary question, as in, is it compatible with LDS doctrine is going to be nigh to impossible (in terms of this thread; everyone has the opportunity to answer it for themselves in terms of their own life).

I just kind of wish we weren't quite so obsessed with things sexual, and could discuss morality in terms of something more than who is having sex with who once in awhile. The Church could do so much to improve this life if it would speak out against corporate greed once in awhile. So many more are hurt by it than whether Jack and Jim are getting married.

[Maidservant]

I just kind of wish we weren't quite so obsessed with things sexual, and could discuss morality in terms of something more than who is having sex with who once in awhile. The Church could do so much to improve this life if it would speak out against corporate greed once in awhile. So many more are hurt by it than whether Jack and Jim are getting married.

 

I can understand that .

 

[ERayR]

Although there are a few extremist environmental groups, your lis is much too broad. A few environmentalists border on being nature worshipers they are a minority, most and the typical are merely advocating wise stewardship which is clearly consistent with our religious beliefs. To suggest that typically they are profit motivated is a gross misrepresentation, but their opponents are in fact frequently looking at short term profits.

 

Who attempt to force everybody to adhere to their view through litigation and coercion.

[Stone holm]

Who attempt to force everybody to adhere to their view through litigation and coercion.

Except we all have a stake in environmental issues and litigation is part of the system. If it were just a matter of a person screwing up their own property, I might agree that we could allow the lone dissenter to do his or her thing but we are talking about the air we breathe, the food we eat, bio diversity, ground water and surface water, and the global climate. The Midwest Coal burning power plants have nearly killed off the spruce forests in Vermont. Their high stacks put the acid in the air and it comes down on our mountains. Most of the fish in our lakes and rivers are no longer edible because of their mercury content, only a couple species remain edible. So his is beyond just opinions like whether homosexuality is a sin, this is about actually destroying the Earth as an abode for man and God's creatures.

[CV75]

I just kind of wish we weren't quite so obsessed with things sexual, and could discuss morality in terms of something more than who is having sex with who once in awhile. The Church could do so much to improve this life if it would speak out against corporate greed once in awhile. So many more are hurt by it than whether Jack and Jim are getting married.

The Church is all about making holy people (temporally, physically, spiitualy, eternally)--hence the emphasis on individual morality and covenants, whih extend into marital and family relations. Once that is accomplished, everyhting they set their hand to do, whether through corporations or any other device, will reflect the mission to do good. The same with the other seven deadly sins.

[thesometimesaint]

If you put Einstein in a closet you'd still get a man with a lot of hangers.

 

I'm telling my age AGAIN. When I was in school "hangups" were emotional problems.

[thesometimesaint]

The Church is all about making holy people (temporally, physically, spiitualy, eternally)--hence the emphasis on individual morality and covenants, whih extend into marital and family relations. Once that is accomplished, everyhting they set their hand to do, whether through corporations or any other device, will reflect the mission to do good. The same with the other seven deadly sins.

 

One of the two bases of sin is in not loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. If I am using my property to inflict harm on you. IE; Poisining your air, water, ground that you need to live. Then I am committing sin.

 

Ps; Air pollution kills. http://news.yahoo.com/agency-air-pollution-causes-cancer-093059748.html

Edited October 21, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[CV75]

One of the two bases of sin is in not loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. If I am using my property to inflict harm on you. IE; Poisining your air, water, ground that you need to live. Then I am committing sin.

 

Ps; Air pollution kills. http://news.yahoo.com/agency-air-pollution-causes-cancer-093059748.html

I agree, especially if done knowingly to turn a profit (or even if not...some men just want to watch the world burn...).

 

I think the Church prioritizes Gospel teaching in terms of individual and marriage covenants and family happiness over the many ways people can commit sin because individual agency is where it all starts, and marriage and family are where these things are best taught and practiced.

 

“When the real history of mankind is fully disclosed, will it feature the echoes of gunfire or the shaping sound of lullabies? The great armistices made by military men or the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods? Will what happened in cradles and kitchens prove to be more controlling than what happened in congresses." (Neal A. Maxwell, “The Women of God,” Ensign, May 1978, 10–11). Corporate activity can be added to that list, as can any endeavor in any human industry, economy, science, literature, art, culture, etc.

[Stone holm]

I agree, especially if done knowingly to turn a profit (or even if not...some men just want to watch the world burn...).

 

I think the Church prioritizes Gospel teaching in terms of individual and marriage covenants and family happiness over the many ways people can commit sin because individual agency is where it all starts, and marriage and family are where these things are best taught and practiced.

 

“When the real history of mankind is fully disclosed, will it feature the echoes of gunfire or the shaping sound of lullabies? The great armistices made by military men or the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods? Will what happened in cradles and kitchens prove to be more controlling than what happened in congresses." (Neal A. Maxwell, “The Women of God,” Ensign, May 1978, 10–11). Corporate activity can be added to that list, as can any endeavor in any human industry, economy, science, literature, art, culture, etc.

 

I am not sure that has always been the case, it may be a relatively recent approach in the Church -- by recent I mean 20th Century.

[thesometimesaint]

I agree, especially if done knowingly to turn a profit (or even if not...some men just want to watch the world burn...).

 

I think the Church prioritizes Gospel teaching in terms of individual and marriage covenants and family happiness over the many ways people can commit sin because individual agency is where it all starts, and marriage and family are where these things are best taught and practiced.

 

“When the real history of mankind is fully disclosed, will it feature the echoes of gunfire or the shaping sound of lullabies? The great armistices made by military men or the peacemaking of women in homes and in neighborhoods? Will what happened in cradles and kitchens prove to be more controlling than what happened in congresses." (Neal A. Maxwell, “The Women of God,” Ensign, May 1978, 10–11). Corporate activity can be added to that list, as can any endeavor in any human industry, economy, science, literature, art, culture, etc.

 

I think the best place to teach environmental values starts in the home. For those unwilling or unable to learn those valuable lessons, other less good means may have to be employed. Resorting to violence is never a good means.

[CV75]

I am not sure that has always been the case, it may be a relatively recent approach in the Church -- by recent I mean 20th Century.

That's OK, it all depends on what teaching is needed, and when. I've read accounts where Brigham Young said some things that sound like instructions for ecological-type stewardship without saying anything about gay "marriage." The same with Spencer W. Kimball (shooting birds, raising gardens, etc.).

 

But while the earth can be smitten with a curse ecologiclly speaking through misuse (and has been), it can also be smitten with a curse eternally speaking without temple ordinances across the generations, which is ultimately based on a marital and familial moral code (D&C 27: 9, D&C 110: 15, D&C 128: 18, D&C 138: 48). Being the last days and all, I think this is why priority is placed on these latter principles in the global Church, where it is too late to do much environmentally in many places where we are taking the Gospel. The same with corporate greed and other corruption of all kinds.

[CV75]

I think the best place to teach environmental values starts in the home. For those unwilling or unable to learn those valuable lessons, other less good means may have to be employed. Resorting to violence is never a good means.

I agree; BYU has a great Environmental Sciecne program which, if the eductaed use it properly, can bless many throughout the world. I have three nephews that have entered this field.

 

http://environmentalscience.byu.edu/

[Stone holm]

That's OK, it all depends on what teaching is needed, and when. I've read accounts where Brigham Young said some things that sound like instructions for ecological-type stewardship without saying anything about gay "marriage." The same with Spencer W. Kimball (shooting birds, raising gardens, etc.).

 

But while the earth can be smitten with a curse ecologiclly speaking through misuse (and has been), it can also be smitten with a curse eternally speaking without temple ordinances across the generations, which is ultimately based on a marital and familial moral code (D&C 27: 9, D&C 110: 15, D&C 128: 18, D&C 138: 48). Being the last days and all, I think this is why priority is placed on these latter principles in the global Church, where it is too late to do much environmentally in many places where we are taking the Gospel. The same with corporate greed and other corruption of all kinds.

 

I tend to be an optimist and never believe it is too late.  Vermont rivers used to be so heavily polluted with industrial pollutants that they literally changed colors in the spring when the snowmelt pushed the stuff downstream, now except for the agricultural pollutants in some of the remaining dairy districts and the acid rain coming in from the midwest they are pretty clear and clean.  If they could get the mercury and airborne pollutants under control the fish would be edible again in most ponds and streams.  So I tend to be an optimist.  On the other hand, I remember back in Indiana factories dumping heavy metals into the county ditch system and releasing lead clouds over the local school's playground -- and realizing that except for water pollution in the lakes where the wealthy live that the State does little to combat pollution, I wonder what may be going on elsewhere.

[CV75]

I tend to be an optimist and never believe it is too late. 

Great! Put that optimism to work in your community!

[thesometimesaint]

Fortunately most states, and the national government, are getting on board with environmental concerns. There are BIG financial and social costs for allowing our water, air, and ground to become open sewers for whatever we want to dump into them. We are making great progress, but much much more remains to be done. IE; Stage 4 Smog Alerts are becoming a distant memory.