Evolution Vs God

[Rob Osborn]

Rob:

 

Whether I beleve something is true, or not, does not meet the requirements of science. I must be able to provide sufficient evidence to gain the support of a disinterested third party.

 

I don't "believe" 2+2=4. That is simply a fact of the addition of numerals as represented by numbers.

 

Science isn't a matter for courts of law. Though courts of law may use science. But if you want to go that route you'll still come up short.

http://ncse.com/creationism/legal/intelligent-design-trial-kitzmiller-v-dover

 

Again my belief has no bearing on facts. IE; According to the Christian Bible Pi is exactly equal to three. The fact is that it isn't and no amount of belief is going to change that Pi is 3.1415926535... .

 

Evolution is a fact. Time to move on.

Learn how to use English then. Evolution is a theory not a fact.

[Rob Osborn]

I didn't say that. We don't believe Prophets are always wrong. Nor do we believe Prophets are always right.

 

It is rediculous to claim they are either one. Plus we are one of few churches that believe in new revelation that corrects old misunderstandings.

That is correct. The last official statement officially by the Brthren is that we are not the evolved species of some inferior animal.

[cdowis]

Except for the fact that our religion actually believes that Adam was made from the dust of this earth.

No it actually does not.

[Rob Osborn]

Does this include the creation period?

No, only the time since the fall. The word "temporal" means pertaining to time. Up until the fall man had not been appointed his reckoning of time.

13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning

[Rob Osborn]

No it actually does not.

Yes, it actually does-

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Moses 3:7)

[Questing Beast]

In LDS doctrine, beforw the fall there was no death of the entire creation. This coincides with revekation that this earth will have a 7,000 year temporal existance.

Yes, and if you read what I said carefully you would see contained in it a chance for both evolution and a period of "no death" to exist. However long the "no death" period lasted would be completely masked or invisible, since there would be no layer of dead things added during it. Of course, this is only important to religious people who want their religious exegesis and their science, like cake and eating it too....

[ERayR]

But one is a physical and intellectual progression.  The Fall is a spiritual decline, a removal from the Presence of God, a breaking of the covenant made with God so the New Covenant must be established. 

 

 

I can not how one can find a spiritual connection in a being evolving from common descent.

[ERayR]

Except for the fact that our religion actually believes that Adam was made from the dust of this earth. So, no, Adam did not arive already built from another sphere.

 

You better check with BY on that one.  That was not his view.

[Rob Osborn]

Yes, and if you read what I said carefully you would see contained in it a chance for both evolution and a period of "no death" to exist. However long the "no death" period lasted would be completely masked or invisible, since there would be no layer of dead things added during it. Of course, this is only important to religious people who want their religious exegesis and their science, like cake and eating it too....

Not very believable. A period of no mortality sandwiched inbetween mortality. How exactly do you suppose that happens?

[cdowis]

Yes, it actually does-

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Moses 3:7)

 

Sigh.  It does not literally mean what it says  -- it's symbolic to hide the actual process. 

 

You'll just have to take my word for it, or not.  I don't really care.

Edited September 2, 2013 by cdowis

[cdowis]

Not very believable. A period of no mortality sandwiched inbetween mortality. How exactly do you suppose that happens?

The first five days of creation had death, the sixth and seventh day had no death, the telestial (fallen world) had death.

 

Let's just call it a working hypothesis until you come up with something better.

[Rob Osborn]

Sigh.  It does not literally mean what it says  -- it's symbolic to hide the actual process. 

 

You'll just have to take my word for it, or not.  I don't really care.

You are made of the dust of the earth too.

[thesometimesaint]

You are made of the dust of the earth too.

 

We're closer to ancient sea water.

[Questing Beast]

Not very believable. A period of no mortality sandwiched inbetween mortality. How exactly do you suppose that happens?

When "the gods" have perceived that the earth is evolved to the point of immortal habitation, and perform an "upgrade" a la the garden of Eden style. New animals and plants and then humans, all immortal for a period of time: however long it takes for humans to mess it up and cause death to enter into the world. Actually the entire Abrahamic religion paradigm is not very believable. But something like I propose can make it endure for a while yet. You can't stop science, unless with another "dark age"....

[Rob Osborn]

When "the gods" have perceived that the earth is evolved to the point of immortal habitation, and perform an "upgrade" a la the garden of Eden style. New animals and plants and then humans, all immortal for a period of time: however long it takes for humans to mess it up and cause death to enter into the world. Actually the entire Abrahamic religion paradigm is not very believable. But something like I propose can make it endure for a while yet. You can't stop science, unless with another "dark age"....

Perhaps its noble that you can try to fit a creation into the evolution paradigm but its quite oulandish if you ask me.

[thesometimesaint]

When "the gods" have perceived that the earth is evolved to the point of immortal habitation, and perform an "upgrade" a la the garden of Eden style. New animals and plants and then humans, all immortal for a period of time: however long it takes for humans to mess it up and cause death to enter into the world. Actually the entire Abrahamic religion paradigm is not very believable. But something like I propose can make it endure for a while yet. You can't stop science, unless with another "dark age"....

 

More Americans believe in witches flying on broomsticks than accept the reality of science.

[Questing Beast]

You really, truly think so? Because if you are right, then science is doomed, practically stillborn. Nothing can withstand fear of a "demon-haunted world", and anyone trying to talk sense to the fearful will get branded as a "heretic" or worse and shut down if not killed off. But if science is the dominant perspective in the world of the future, because it is believed by the majority now, then the future looks bright, for the first time in history. Science is just "religion" for the rational. The most rational recognize science's limitations and supply the lack with imagination, pondering and "metaphysics", etc....

[EllenMaksoud]

You really, truly think so? Because if you are right, then science is doomed, practically stillborn. Nothing can withstand fear of a "demon-haunted world", and anyone trying to talk sense to the fearful will get branded as a "heretic" or worse and shut down if not killed off. But if science is the dominant perspective in the world of the future, because it is believed by the majority now, then the future looks bright, for the first time in history. Science is just "religion" for the rational. The most rational recognize science's limitations and supply the lack with imagination, pondering and "metaphysics", etc....

Well, in refering to the book of Job, and some references in the stories about Jesus Christ, it is clear that there are beings running around down here that we can not see unless they wish. Job is bothersome to me because in the conversation between Heavenly Father and satan, it shows that satan was able to persuade Heavenly Father to torment Job. Does Heavenly Father not have the ultimate power? Why would satan be able to manipulate God that way? Or, do we even have any idea what transpired to cause the suffering of Job?  Looking at some web sites, it appears as if Job was written around 1500 BC; perhaps one of the oldest books in the bible.

 

I have not done much external reading on the book of Job. I have read it several times and for a while in 2005-6 felt like part of my life resembled Job's.

 

Having thought a lot about a possible scientific basis for other beings roaming earth, seemingly at will and unseen if they wish it so. I think it likely that they have access to more dimensions than we do, and can perhaps flick in and out of our existence as easily as we would walk down a garden path. Perhaps our very existence here on Earth is considerably less concrete than we believe it to be?

Edited September 2, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[Questing Beast]

@Ellen: "Dimensions" is just a word for the concept of "worlds without number". Our 'satiable imaginations have come up with alternate dimensions and it goes into our scifi endlessly, so I don't doubt that it is real enough. But that does not mean that Earth is prey to ungoverned and unseen malignant entities. At most, "they" would be more like vandals, striking when nobody is stopping them; their "work" is easily, if also wearily, erased. I don't believe in eternally damned souls at war with "God". I do believe in confused and ignorant/immature souls doing pesky and destructive things out of pique. Immortals are not all-knowing and never will be....

[thesometimesaint]

You really, truly think so? Because if you are right, then science is doomed, practically stillborn. Nothing can withstand fear of a "demon-haunted world", and anyone trying to talk sense to the fearful will get branded as a "heretic" or worse and shut down if not killed off. But if science is the dominant perspective in the world of the future, because it is believed by the majority now, then the future looks bright, for the first time in history. Science is just "religion" for the rational. The most rational recognize science's limitations and supply the lack with imagination, pondering and "metaphysics", etc....

 

We are in deep dodo. Maybe the rest of the world will just pass the US by, maybe we'll wake up in time before that long good night. I don't know which will happen, but probably a combination of both. All empires come to an end. I probably won't live to see the end, my kids and grandkids will.

[cdowis]

Well, in refering to the book of Job, and some references in the stories about Jesus Christ, it is clear that there are beings running around down here that we can not see unless they wish. Job is bothersome to me because in the conversation between Heavenly Father and satan, it shows that satan was able to persuade Heavenly Father to torment Job.

 

Read it again. More carefully this time.

[Lachoneus]

Sigh.  It does not literally mean what it says  -- it's symbolic to hide the actual process. 

 

The scriptures explain the process referred to by the words "become of dust a living soul."

 

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

(Moses 6:59)

 

The phrase "became of dust a living soul" means to be "born into the world by water, and blood and the spirit." Having been present at the birth of each of my children I have a fair idea what this means.

 

This is how Brigham Young explained it, "“He [Adam] was begotten of a father and brought forth as you and I were, and so are all intelligent beings brought forth from eternity to eternity” (Brigham Young, 2 Brigham Young Addresses (pm 8 October 1854)).

[EllenMaksoud]

Read it again. More carefully this time.

Gosh, it just feels like you are being blunt an unkind to me. I have read the book several times, and if I missed something, you could actually attempt to explain to me where you see my error.

[cinepro]

The first five days of creation had death, the sixth and seventh day had no death, the telestial (fallen world) had death.

 

Let's just call it a working hypothesis until you come up with something better.

 

That's still problematic from a doctrinal and scientific viewpoint.

 

Not to mention the simple logic that if God already had a planet in which animals were living, dying and evolving, He didn't need Adam and Eve to "fall".  He already had a fallen planet.  He just had to put Adam and Eve's spirits into mortal bodies (as has happened billions of times since Adam and Eve) and things could go from there.  No tree/serpent/transgression needed.

Edited September 2, 2013 by cinepro

[Tacenda]

http://www.upworthy.com/if-you-didnt-love-bill-nye-before-you-hear-this-youll-love-him-after-or-youre-a-cold-robot

When I sub in the schools, the kids love Bill Nye the Science Guy. I guess he wants to emphasize that evolution happened. I wonder if Bill becomes more vocal, the schools will back away from showing his videos. But come to think about it, in high school I learned evolution and that man was an ape. I never believed it though.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Tacenda