Mary, The Mother Of Jesus Christ

[EllenMaksoud]

I've had lots of time lately, having been grounded by my Doctor and sent home after a blessing by my Bishop. Perhaps hallucinations have triggered the following.

So, between sleeping and short naps, I've had lots of time to study. It started out with my effort to definitively explain to Muslim friends (that means understanding their side also) who we as Mormons believe Jesus Christ is. I've discovered significant variation just in the so called Christian community, AS IF.

The Catholics get all mystical, but if you want to see mystical then read a bit about Orthodox Christianity, or what the Copts believe. Not ridiculing anyone here. So, after reading all that, then the views of Muslims, depending on what sect, do not seem strange at all.

Interestingly, while Muslims believe he is the Messiah, he is also considered to be a slave to Allah SWT. In the cultural context, being a slave to Allah SWT is not demeaning at all. In fact Paul considered himself to be a bond slave of Jesus Christ. Hmmmm.

I am finding the Muslim point of view not to be so strange after all, though I believe differently, and by prophesy, our cultures will never agree. http://islamawareness.net/Prophets/isa.html

I am victim of my own cultural conditioning. And the reason I finally left Islam was that I could never come to peace with their view on Jesus Christ.

However, the so called main stream, right wing newsie opinion, I find to be equally off and distasteful, even repugnant.

[thesometimesaint]

Personally I think our Muslim brothers and sisters will have an easier time of accepting Jesus as the Son of God than will our Jewish brothers and sisters. If only certain Middle Eastern governments would allow open proselytizing, and conversion. However I don't expect we'll be anything more than a small minority until The Millennium.

Try the Food Network constellation of networks. No politics, but plenty of good food. There is even Kelsey Nixon's "Kelsey's Essentials" on the Cooking Network. She's a Mormon with a degree from BYU in Broadcast Journalism and graduate from Le Cordon Bleu in Hollywood.

Edited May 28, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[halconero]

I was giving a talk on Sunday about how Gospel principles are found among all peoples across the earth and our job is to build upon an already existing foundation. In preparing my talk I found this article to be awesome and much help when talking specifically about Islam.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1972/03/islam-and-mormonism-a-comparison?lang=eng

[EllenMaksoud]

Personally I think our Muslim brothers and sisters will have an easier time of accepting Jesus as the Son of God than will our Jewish brothers and sisters. If only certain Middle Eastern governments would allow open proselytizing, and conversion. However I don't expect we'll be anything more than a small minority until The Millennium.

Try the Food Network constellation of networks. No politics, but plenty of good food. There is even Kelsey Nixon's "Kelsey's Essentials" on the Cooking Network. She's a Mormon with a degree from BYU in Broadcast Journalism and graduate from Le Cordon Bleu in Hollywood.

For me, being Mormon often feels like riding two horses at once. That's all right, Heavenly Father gave me permission, and he said I would have to be very, very good. Of course I am well aware of James 1:8 "Such a person is double minded...

I am different however, being entirely fed up with exclusivisim and ruction.

[thesometimesaint]

She'll be coming 'round the mountain when she comes, (when she comes).

She'll be ridin' six white horses when she comes,

Oh we'll all come out to meet her when she comes,

She'll be wearing pink pyjamas when she comes,

We will kill the old red rooster when she comes,

We'll all be shoutin' "Halleluja" when she comes, .

She'll be comin' down a road that's five miles long,

[EllenMaksoud]

I was giving a talk on Sunday about how Gospel principles are found among all peoples across the earth and our job is to build upon an already existing foundation. In preparing my talk I found this article to be awesome and much help when talking specifically about Islam.

http://www.lds.org/e...arison?lang=eng

I was giving a talk on Sunday about how Gospel principles are found among all peoples across the earth and our job is to build upon an already existing foundation. In preparing my talk I found this article to be awesome and much help when talking specifically about Islam.

http://www.lds.org/e...arison?lang=eng

I am reading the entry by Hugh Nibley, and find it interesting and challenging. I do not agree with everything he says but if I did then one of us would not be necessary. Having come to peace with the fact that I will never be a full member, I still find Mormon scholarship to be superior to those I have previously encountered.

[EllenMaksoud]

She'll be coming 'round the mountain when she comes, (when she comes).

She'll be ridin' six white horses when she comes,

Oh we'll all come out to meet her when she comes,

She'll be wearing pink pyjamas when she comes,

We will kill the old red rooster when she comes,

We'll all be shoutin' "Halleluja" when she comes, .

She'll be comin' down a road that's five miles long,

LOL, not six, just two please.

[seriously honestly]

but if you want to see mystical then read a bit about Orthodox Christianity, or what the Copts believe. Not ridiculing anyone here. So, after reading all that, then the views of Muslims, depending on what sect, do not seem strange at all.

However, the so called main stream, right wing newsie opinion, I find to be equally off and distasteful, even repugnant.

What are you talking about? What about the main stream Christian view of Mary do you find distasteful or repugnant?

[EllenMaksoud]

What are you talking about? What about the main stream Christian view of Mary do you find distasteful or repugnant?

Not going to derail the thread here, but I came from main stream Christianity and out of extreme frustration went to Islam. When I started visiting with the Sister Missionaries, I adamantly objected to Mormons calling themselves Christians because I had fallen prey to their tender mercies, but finally had to yield. In compromise, I agreed to call Mormons Christianity 1.0 and the rest were at least Christianity 8.0, since I felt and still do that the so called main stream church is apostate and departed from what Jesus Christ taught.

Even Paul's teaching is sometimes suspect to me. I believe that the early church started going apostate in the book of Acts. This does not mean that the entirety of the rest of the OT is without value but that it is at time harsh and misogynistic; causing ructions in the church even today.

Of note is the fact that non-Mormon churches I have encountered are effective at identifying sin and shunning and punishment, they are not good at all with restoration and repentance.

In contrast, I believe the Mormon church to be quite adept and healing at restoration. I believe it is one of the most important aspects of the church.

[seriously honestly]

Not going to derail the thread here, but I came from main stream Christianity and out of extreme frustration went to Islam. When I started visiting with the Sister Missionaries, I adamantly objected to Mormons calling themselves Christians because I had fallen prey to their tender mercies, but finally had to yield. In compromise, I agreed to call Mormons Christianity 1.0 and the rest were at least Christianity 8.0, since I felt and still do that the so called main stream church is apostate and departed from what Jesus Christ taught.

Even Paul's teaching is sometimes suspect to me. I believe that the early church started going apostate in the book of Acts. This does not mean that the entirety of the rest of the OT is without value but that it is at time harsh and misogynistic; causing ructions in the church even today.

Of note is the fact that non-Mormon churches I have encountered are effective at identifying sin and shunning and punishment, they are not good at all with restoration and repentance.

In contrast, I believe the Mormon church to be quite adept and healing at restoration. I believe it is one of the most important aspects of the church.

I feel like I'm still missing something (I haven't been around for some time now, so your thoughts/feelings regarding Christianity were probably discussed previously), but what does this have to do with Mary? Or is it specifically Mary, while the whole of Chirsitianity you don't like? I can't tackle the whole thing, but maybe in small steps...

Edited May 28, 2013 by seriously honestly

[EllenMaksoud]

I feel like I'm still missing something (I haven't been around for some time now, so your thoughts/feelings regarding Christianity were probably discussed previously), but what does this have to do with Mary? Or is it specifically Mary, while the whole of Chirsitianity you don't like? I can't tackle the whole thing, but maybe in small steps...

I originally mispoke. Mary I have no issue with. The non Mormon christian church I do. For clarity you can consider me a Mormon/Muslim or Muslim/Mormon. In respect to Jesus the Christ specifically, he is the son of God.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Personally I think our Muslim brothers and sisters will have an easier time of accepting Jesus as the Son of God than will our Jewish brothers and sisters.

I do not think so, Muslims believe that God fathering a son is insulting. The Jews will be converted by Christ himself. I know a number of Jews who are now Mormon (but they still remain Jews and most keep Jewish and Christian holidays) but as the original poster can testify too, if Muslims convert they are under penalty of death, and under Islamic law any Muslim is justified (in country's where allowed) to kill those who convert. Jews are allowed to do what they wish. Also they do consider him as a Prophet...although a "minor Prophet" because he did not write. Edited May 29, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[seriously honestly]

I originally mispoke. Mary I have no issue with. The non Mormon christian church I do. For clarity you can consider me a Mormon/Muslim or Muslim/Mormon. In respect to Jesus the Christ specifically, he is the son of God.

Any specifics we can discuss?

[EllenMaksoud]

I do not think so, Muslims believe that God fathering a son is insulting. The Jews will be converted by Christ himself. I know a number of Jews who are now Mormon (but they still remain Jews and most keep Jewish and Christian holidays) but as the original poster can testify too, if Muslims convert they are under penalty of death, and under Islamic law any Muslim is justified (in country's where allowed) to kill those who convert. Jews are allowed to do what they wish.

Well, I just found out why it is acceptable for me to remain largely Muslim in my heart with the exception that I believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, and of course Joseph Smith and the Mormon documents. I did not know that Jews are allowed to remain Jewish. This explains a great deal to me about my present experiences. I plan to return to the observance of Hijab immediately.

In America, the failure rate of converts to Islam is around 66%. So, if Muslims in America were so blood thirsty, such honor killings would be rampant.

I had a strange experience when I saw a long time Saudi Muslim friend of mine shortly after I converted to Mormonism. He came to my house and I revealed what I had done to him. There is a Honduran Machete on the wall there and he could have done it then. He told me that such punishment is for the Mutawallees (Religious Police) and not for citizens. He has even invited me to Ashland where he attends school to visit.

Granted, in places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the Sudan, I would be in danger. But here in America, not so much.

[EllenMaksoud]

Any specifics we can discuss?

Just looking at your profile, perhaps not without raising your ire. Briefly I am anti war, am a veteran of the Vietnam Era, and believe that politicians that think we should be in a war should be in military service on the front lines.

Flatly, I sinned inexcusably, and was excluded from the church. There were no provisions as outlined in Galatians 6:1. In the end I felt that to them Jesus Christ was some bobble head in their back window. I was so angry that I became Muslim and remain largely so, with the exception that I believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, and am generally Mormon.

If that does not get your head spinning, I've done my best.

[grhammjr]

I saw an article once about an LDS marine and his Arab Princess bride, unfortunately the marriage failed, Would be interesting to find out how many Muslim to Mormon conversions happen in countries like the UK, France and the US.

[Stone holm]

Just looking at your profile, perhaps not without raising your ire. Briefly I am anti war, am a veteran of the Vietnam Era, and believe that politicians that think we should be in a war should be in military service on the front lines.

Flatly, I sinned inexcusably, and was excluded from the church. There were no provisions as outlined in Galatians 6:1. In the end I felt that to them Jesus Christ was some bobble head in their back window. I was so angry that I became Muslim and remain largely so, with the exception that I believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, and am generally Mormon.

If that does not get your head spinning, I've done my best.

You done well. I tried to figure out what your initial comment had to do with the title and it wasn't terribly clear. In some respect we are closer to the Catholics than to the Protestants when it comes to Mary, Mother of Jesus, in that logic would say she is married to Heavenly Father -- although we do not worship her. I think rather than mainline Christians that you are disgusted with, it would probably be more the Christian Right. The Christian Left has been relatively silent since the end of the Viet Nam Era, but I think you are going to see them get more and more vocal as more and more people begin to share your disgust. There is, I believe, a tipping point when people get sick of the idea of Christ stoning the adulteress and clapping the money-changers on the back as good ole boys.

[EllenMaksoud]

I saw an article once about an LDS marine and his Arab Princess bride, unfortunately the marriage failed, Would be interesting to find out how many Muslim to Mormon conversions happen in countries like the UK, France and the US.

Most Muslim converts to Islam in America are Black. There are White American converts to Islam but not many. If you look it up, Muslims in America are still a very small percentage of the American populace. At least for white American female converts, the failure rate is around 66%. It is very tough for a female in that category to be successful, because she probably does not speak Arabic, and it is hard for these women, when they go abroad to fit into the family of the groom. American women who feel that we do not have equal rights, should not go abroad. I have personal experience in that area.

[EllenMaksoud]

You done well. I tried to figure out what your initial comment had to do with the title and it wasn't terribly clear. In some respect we are closer to the Catholics than to the Protestants when it comes to Mary, Mother of Jesus, in that logic would say she is married to Heavenly Father -- although we do not worship her. I think rather than mainline Christians that you are disgusted with, it would probably be more the Christian Right. The Christian Left has been relatively silent since the end of the Viet Nam Era, but I think you are going to see them get more and more vocal as more and more people begin to share your disgust. There is, I believe, a tipping point when people get sick of the idea of Christ stoning the adulteress and clapping the money-changers on the back as good ole boys.

People who dis Mormons get my hackles up pretty quickly. As you know, Heavenly Father literally used Mormons to save my life full stop. However, I have been repeatedly and firmly but gently admonished to "make nice" to those on the right. If one studies, really studies the bible and the wishes of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, it becomes obvious to me that we are called to be gentle, loving and kind to all. It is often a struggle for me to rise to that level, but I keep trying.

[EllenMaksoud]

I saw an article once about an LDS marine and his Arab Princess bride, unfortunately the marriage failed, Would be interesting to find out how many Muslim to Mormon conversions happen in countries like the UK, France and the US.

OOPs, I mis read your comment! Um sorry. While the GA downplays these things, there are actually quite a few. I am one and I personally know of two others right here in my surrounding area. Both of the others seem to be from the Lebanon area, where Christians, Jews and Muslims have mixed quite freely for centuries. The radical Hezbola have created quite a lot of ruction, but frankly, from my own experience with Jews, they are no angels either. Most are really nice, but a few act like your overbearing, arrogant, superior big brother who hates you.

[ERayR]

I've had lots of time lately, having been grounded by my Doctor and sent home after a blessing by my Bishop. Perhaps hallucinations have triggered the following.

So, between sleeping and short naps, I've had lots of time to study. It started out with my effort to definitively explain to Muslim friends (that means understanding their side also) who we as Mormons believe Jesus Christ is. I've discovered significant variation just in the so called Christian community, AS IF.

The Catholics get all mystical, but if you want to see mystical then read a bit about Orthodox Christianity, or what the Copts believe. Not ridiculing anyone here. So, after reading all that, then the views of Muslims, depending on what sect, do not seem strange at all.

Interestingly, while Muslims believe he is the Messiah, he is also considered to be a slave to Allah SWT. In the cultural context, being a slave to Allah SWT is not demeaning at all. In fact Paul considered himself to be a bond slave of Jesus Christ. Hmmmm.

I am finding the Muslim point of view not to be so strange after all, though I believe differently, and by prophesy, our cultures will never agree. http://islamawarenes...ophets/isa.html

I am victim of my own cultural conditioning. And the reason I finally left Islam was that I could never come to peace with their view on Jesus Christ.

However, the so called main stream, right wing newsie opinion, I find to be equally off and distasteful, even repugnant.

That doesn't seem too far out of line, taking in cultural differences.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Well, I just found out why it is acceptable for me to remain largely Muslim in my heart with the exception that I believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, and of course Joseph Smith and the Mormon documents. I did not know that Jews are allowed to remain Jewish.

To clarify, Jews remain Jews, because it is their race. They are no longer members of the theory congregations. I have friends who still keep the Passover. Honor the Day of Atonement, A very good friend always had a Christmas Tree and a Manorah (not sure how to spell that word). One can change their faith, but not their race and heritage. Keep in mind the Church does not prohibit any cultural practices of others faiths, unless they are sinful...such as polygamy.

[thesometimesaint]

You done well. I tried to figure out what your initial comment had to do with the title and it wasn't terribly clear. In some respect we are closer to the Catholics than to the Protestants when it comes to Mary, Mother of Jesus, in that logic would say she is married to Heavenly Father -- although we do not worship her. I think rather than mainline Christians that you are disgusted with, it would probably be more the Christian Right. The Christian Left has been relatively silent since the end of the Viet Nam Era, but I think you are going to see them get more and more vocal as more and more people begin to share your disgust. There is, I believe, a tipping point when people get sick of the idea of Christ stoning the adulteress and clapping the money-changers on the back as good ole boys.

That Mary married God isn't theologically supportable.

Not too sure that putting the money-changers in our government is all that wise either.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

That Mary married God isn't theologically supportable.

Not too sure that putting the money-changers in our government is all that wise either.

You are correct on first comment...

On the second comment...that ship has sailed.

[Stone holm]

That Mary married God isn't theologically supportable.

Not too sure that putting the money-changers in our government is all that wise either.

Really? So you are accusing God of what.? The Lord assured Joseph he would be otherwise provided for and he was alluding to what?