Lds Apologetics And The Early Church Fathers

[volgadon]

But, Latter-day Saints are promised that, in time, we would even comprehend God (Doctrine and Covenants 88:49). For other faiths God is forever incomprehensible and unknowable.

St. Gregory Palamas on knowledge, as part of a discourse on mind and Logos in his Chapters.

"But nor is it in the sense of a word in our discursive intellect, even though it be without sounds and is produced entirely by incorporeal mental impulses, for that too is posterior to us and requires both intervals and not a few extensions of time since it comes forth gradually and is brought from incompletion in the beginning towards its completion in the end. Rather, it is in the sense of the word naturally stored up within our mind, whereby we have come into being from the one who created us according to his own image, namely, that knowledge which is always coexistent with the mind. The knowledge also present there in a special way in the supreme mind of the absolutely and transcendently perfect goodness, in which there is nothing imperfect except that this knowledge is derived from it, is indistinguishably all things that goodness is."

[Stone holm]

St. Gregory Palamas on knowledge, as part of a discourse on mind and Logos in his Chapters.

"But nor is it in the sense of a word in our discursive intellect, even though it be without sounds and is produced entirely by incorporeal mental impulses, for that too is posterior to us and requires both intervals and not a few extensions of time since it comes forth gradually and is brought from incompletion in the beginning towards its completion in the end. Rather, it is in the sense of the word naturally stored up within our mind, whereby we have come into being from the one who created us according to his own image, namely, that knowledge which is always coexistent with the mind. The knowledge also present there in a special way in the supreme mind of the absolutely and transcendently perfect goodness, in which there is nothing imperfect except that this knowledge is derived from it, is indistinguishably all things that goodness is."

And this tells us exactly what?

[volgadon]

And this tells us exactly what?

That Orthodox consider knowledge a gradual, unfolding process which eventually will be completed. It is no "black box."

[Stone holm]

That Orthodox consider knowledge a gradual, unfolding process which eventually will be completed. It is no "black box."

A gradually unfolding knowledge of a god who is basically described as being unknowable? How does that work?

[3DOP]

"We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known." (I Cor. 13:12)

To continue the biblical metaphor of marriage, we may say that incomplete knowledge has come gradually through the imperfect medium of human revelation. There will be an abruptness in the "face to face" when "I shall know even as I am known", but not until the time of the wedding. I find ample satisfaction in God's incomplete revelation to admit that I do not not know how to explain all of the facts that have been revealed for us in this time of faith. I am not going to admit that a dim, shadowy, faith-based knowledge is a necessary evidence of apostasy.

I do not speak for Latter-day Saints. If some Mormons think that Latter-day revelation clears up and disposes of all mystery before you are "face to face", it would seem difficult for me to understand. For me, it would seem to diminish the grandeur of the "face to face" if it is fulfilled in this life, merely through a bigger Bible. I am thinking that if I were LDS, I would be among those who appreciating further light, would still be thinking that there are significant gaps in their knowledge of God that no increase of Scripture could fill up. That isn't a criticism of Scripture or prophecy. It just acknowledges our own limitations until we are released from faith based knowledge.

3DOP

Edited May 29, 2013 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

A gradually unfolding knowledge of a god who is basically described as being unknowable? How does that work?

Hi Stone holm.

Unknowable now. Because of faith-based knowledge. Nobody is arguing that God will never elevate our intellects to a perfect understanding. We are just saying that it has to be future.

3DOP

[volgadon]

A gradually unfolding knowledge of a god who is basically described as being unknowable? How does that work?

Your assumption doesn't work, but that is what neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe. The point is that our senses limit what we can currently comprehend about God

[volgadon]

Hi Stone holm.

Unknowable now. Because of faith-based knowledge. Nobody is arguing that God will never elevate our intellects to a perfect understanding. We are just saying that it has to be future.

3DOP

Exactly.

"We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known." (I Cor. 13:12)

To continue the biblical metaphor of marriage, we may say that incomplete knowledge has come gradually through the imperfect medium of human revelation. There will be an abruptness in the "face to face" when "I shall know even as I am known", but not until the time of the wedding. I find ample satisfaction in God's incomplete revelation to admit that I do not not know how to explain all of the facts that have been revealed for us in this time of faith. I am not going to admit that a dim, shadowy, faith-based knowledge is a necessary evidence of apostasy.

I do not speak for Latter-day Saints. If some Mormons think that Latter-day revelation clears up and disposes of all mystery before you are "face to face", it would seem difficult for me to understand. For me, it would seem to diminish the grandeur of the "face to face" if it is fulfilled in this life, merely through a bigger Bible. I am thinking that if I were LDS, I would be among those who appreciating further light, would still be thinking that there are significant gaps in their knowledge of God that no increase of Scripture could fill up. That isn't a criticism of Scripture or prophecy. It just acknowledges our own limitations until we are released from faith based knowledge.

3DOP

I tried to provide examples of LDS teachings that we cannot currently fully understand. There are quite a few, to say the least.

[Ahab]

Exactly.

I tried to provide examples of LDS teachings that we cannot currently fully understand. There are quite a few, to say the least.

The problem is often a failure to communicate well enough so that someone else can clearly comprehend us and what we are thinking when we say something to try to express our ideas. Like when someone says God is incomprehensible, for example. On its face the statement doens't ring true because through the Holy Spirit we can discern that God is comprehensible. We may not comprehend him now, but then again we can, in some sense, at least a little bit, after spending some time in communion with him. Comprehending can come in degrees, or it can also come all at once when we get to the point where we comprehend everything God comprehends, if we get there. I don't think all knowledge of him will come to anyone who doesn't really want to know him, though.

[Stone holm]

The problem is often a failure to communicate well enough so that someone else can clearly comprehend us and what we are thinking when we say something to try to express our ideas. Like when someone says God is incomprehensible, for example. On its face the statement doens't ring true because through the Holy Spirit we can discern that God is comprehensible. We may not comprehend him now, but then again we can, in some sense, at least a little bit, after spending some time in communion with him. Comprehending can come in degrees, or it can also come all at once when we get to the point where we comprehend everything God comprehends, if we get there. I don't think all knowledge of him will come to anyone who doesn't really want to know him, though.

I agree, I think.

[Ahab]

I agree, I think.

For another example consider how we can comprehend the fact that God, our Father, has a body as tangible as our own. We can comprehend that now whether or not we are near enough to him to be able to touch his person, and whether or not we are translated or resurrected as he is. There is no need for any of us to have any doubts about that, and to instead know with perfect certainty that he does have a tangible, physical, body. And yet some people will still say that is not true and that he can't be comprehended in that way, either now or ever. That he doesn't actually have a tangible, physical, body, or that if he does we can't know or comprehend the fact that he does at this moment in our lives. We can still comprehend what is true, though, even though some people will still call some things incomprehensible while in fact that are comprehensible. We just need to know the truth while also knowing how to know what is true. People can't pull the wool over our eyes when we comprehend something as it truly is, no matter how hard they might try.