Keeping One'S Testimony In The Coming Anti-Religion Tsunami

[Stone holm]

As a general rule, I am against punishing whole groups of people for the sins of a few, regardless of the group--i.e. I am against pejorative stereotyping..

However, to me, the problem with modern society is that it tends to discriminate in its application of this general rule. There are preferred groups for which the media and politicians will immediately express caution against visiting upon the whole the sins of a few, almost to the point of giving preference to the caution over rightful expressions of outrage at certain heinous acts, while yet with other groups they become willing participants in visiting the sins of a few onto the whole. To see this, one need but look at the different treatment in the media that Liberals, blacks, and Muslims, and homosexuals get as compared with Right-wing, white, Christians, Tea Party members.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Really? Course I suppose there is some truth to what you say about the Tea Party, but that is because of the wonderfully quotable stuff they ejaculate.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Stone holm

[Saints Alive]

With that reasoning one can claim that anti-Jewish bigotry is hardly present as well, and anti-Mormon totally nonexistent due to the small percentage of hate crimes. And since anti-Christian hate crimes are much less than either of Jewish or Muslim even when Protestant and Catholic are combined, then we must claim there is no such thing as the war against Christianity with your reasoning.

Anti-Muslim bigotry is the second most common form of religious hate crimes and if one factors in the percentage of Muslims present in comparison that allow for such an opportunity to attack, then it is the highest percentagewise.

you are just being ridiculous, where did I say that hate crimes are nonexistent? My only point is that 1) there won't be that big of a rise in anti-Muslim hate crimes. And 2) that rise, if any, won't cause an anti-religion "Tsunami" as the OP states. You are being alarmists.

[Stone holm]

you are just being ridiculous, where did I say that hate crimes are nonexistent? My only point is that 1) there won't be that big of a rise in anti-Muslim hate crimes. And 2) that rise, if any, won't cause an anti-religion "Tsunami" as the OP states. You are being alarmists.

Maybe, but I think you are wrong. There is one group in America which now polls worse than Congress and that is the Christian Right. I haven't seen any polls on the Christian Left, but it has been generally silent since the end of the Vietnam War. I take that as evidence that current admixture of politics and religion is a factor in turning more and more people off towards religion. While it is possible to argue that Islam is the only Abrahamic religion with a strong history of conversion at sword point, I think that in the minds of a growing number of Americans they are seeing religion as a source of oppression and potential violence, and the bulk of Americans being opposed to both are turning away.

[Calm]

My only point is that 1) there won't be that big of a rise in anti-Muslim hate crimes.

There was a 1600% increase in anti-Muslim hate crime immediately after 9/11. That in actual amount (from 28 for a year in 2000 to 481 IIRC...most happening in the last four months of 2001) it was not significant in comparison to the rest of crimes done in the US may mean it is something that can be ignored as 'not that big' in your way of interpreting the stats but I have concern about the dramatic increase percentagewise myself. What would the actual count be if there was greater opportunity for it? If the Muslim population was 20% of the population rather than only .6%? Is it okay simply because there aren't that many Muslims out there to be attacked or because religious bigotry thankfully doesn't descend that often to the level of violence?

But as Wade pointed out, the stats for hate crime demonstrate the trend of bigotry in general...if one applies the increase of hate crimes percentage to all forms of bigotry, then that 1600% increase becomes quite concerning, I would hope.

where did I say that hate crimes are nonexistent

You didn't, I was applying your general logic to the hate crime stats...

Edited April 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Saints Alive]

If the Muslim population was 20% of the population do you think we would have seen as large of a rise in hate crimes? Percentages don't really say much when you have such a small population. If someone went out and attacked 10 Amish do you know how much the Amish hate crime rate would go up? whether or not Muslim hate crimes increase or not is really only half the point. I still don't see why an increase in muslim hate crimes would cause an increase in Mormon or Christian hate crime? Certainly not so much as to be able to call it a "tsunami" of hate.

[Calm]

I still don't see why an increase in muslim hate crimes would cause an increase in Mormon or Christian hate crime? Certainly not so much as to be able to call it a "tsunami" of hate.

I am not addressing that, I am solely addressing your claim that there wasn't much anti-Muslim bigotry post 9/11.

Even after 9/11 there wasn't that much anti-Islam bigotry

Do you believe there is anti-Jewish bigotry out there? How extensive do you think it is? Do you think it can exist even if there isn't a Jew around to act it out on?

Edited April 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Saints Alive]

I am not addressing that, I am solely addressing your claim that there wasn't much anti-Muslim bigotry post 9/11.

Do you believe there is anti-Jewish bigotry out there? How extensive do you think it is? Do you think it can exist even if there isn't a Jew around to act it out on?

You are putting words into my mouth. There are all shades of bigotry out there but, relatively speaking, anti-jewish and anti-muslim bigotry are not quantitatively that big of an issue. Was there an increase in muslim bigotry after 9/11? sure but its not like they were blacks living under jim crow laws.

[Stone holm]

I am not addressing that, I am solely addressing your claim that there wasn't much anti-Muslim bigotry post 9/11.

Do you believe there is anti-Jewish bigotry out there? How extensive do you think it is? Do you think it can exist even if there isn't a Jew around to act it out on?

Having grown up in a 99.9% white rural Indiana county, I can testify that racism abounded even though there were no blacks available to directly persecute. I don't recall any anti-Semitism, and I doubt they knew much if anything about Islam. But, I am almost 100% sure that there is plenty of anti-Muslim feeling there now and I am certain that the recent events have increased it.

[Calm]

sure but its not like they were blacks living under jim crow laws.

Do you believe there is anti-black racism in the US now?

[Calm]

But, I am almost 100% sure that there is plenty of anti-Muslim feeling there now and I am certain that the recent events have increased it.

Having unfortunately heard it even from the mouth of 9 year old girls who have most likely never met a Muslim in their life or even have a clue what their religious faith actually is, I would agree. Edited April 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

Having unfortunately heard it even from the mouth of 9 year old girls who have most likely never met a Muslim in their life or even have a clue what their religious faith actually is, I would agree.

Having unfortunately heard it even from the mouth of 9 year old girls who have most likely never met a Muslim in their life or even have a clue what their religious faith actually is, I would agree.

The added problem is we have people like the Westboro Baptist Church and other sectors of morons who will give people plenty of evidence that they can legitimately extrapolate this type of anti-social behavior to all religions and our missionaries will see more doors closed in their faces, and that is just among educated people. Amongst the uneducated, when a large Mormon family in our Ward started buying up businesses and land in a neighboring town the local dopes spread the word that Muslims had taken over the town...hey they both start with M don't they?

[Calm]

Amongst the uneducated, when a large Mormon family in our Ward started buying up businesses and land in a neighboring town the local dopes spread the word that Muslims had taken over the town...hey they both start with M don't they?

That would be funny if it wasn't sad.

[Stone holm]

That would be funny if it wasn't sad.

Yeah, we'll it is very sad for me because I have two well educated daughters in law, who won't let the missionaries into their home because of their general attitude that religious dogma is responsible for a lot, if not all of the bigotry and sexism in America. Both families provide much of their local community leadership.

[Calm]

religious dogma is responsible for a lot, if not all of the bigotry and sexism in America

When I went to Russia, I was shocked by the overt bigotry I saw there towards blacks and pretty much any nonEuropean groups as well as just plain hate among some for Europe and the US. It was much more acceptable apparently to vocalize bigotry there than it was in the States. Whether or not that meant more actual bigotry, I don't know but we heard of a lot of violence against obvious nonRussians, including missionaries being spat upon and little old ladies making the Evil Eye sign toward them and Nigerian students being frequently followed and harassed and on occasion attacked and beaten up and even ourselves where we were refused service in a store...and we were there for about 6 months. And sexism was alive and well including female professors being treated inappropriately, having one woman token on a government board, etc.

Religion was not the cause of that, though the most bigoted were happy to use it as a tool to further their popularity.

Edited April 21, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nemesis]

The politicizing of threads needs to stop now.

Nemesis