Greg Smith'S Review Of Dehlin'S "Mormon Stories" Is Now Available

[Teancum]

If you have not read those comments on "Moving Foward," then perhaps you ought to give it a go. And, I have been wrong, and I am do not think that I have something called "the absolute truth." I have, instead, what I consider good reasons for faith in God as that is set out in the core narrative that constitutes the ground and content of the faith of the Saints. I am, of course, delighted to see the transformation that takes place in those who come to faith, or return to faith. I find it sad when someone turns against God and adopts as their new religion hostility to the Church of Jesus Christ coupled, most often, with an arid militant atheism. Don't you? If not, then why not?

yes I do find it sad. That is one of the reasons I have personally consciously taken very slow steps in my own faith and journey although there are those here who have reviled me as a wolf in sheeps cloting and falsely accused me of attacking the apologetic endeavor.

[Scott Lloyd]

i hope you are not wondering why so many people despise you. You may not agree with them, but it must be clear when you write and share comments like these that you are being unkind, at best.

You make a remark like this and in the next sentence call someone unkind?

[William Schryver]

what i dont see in these discussions - is people asking why did dehlin got so many followers.

I suspect it is because what he teaches is pleasing unto the carnal mind.

Edited March 1, 2013 by William Schryver

[Scott Lloyd]

I didn't know you're a GD teacher! How many people that teach GD, do you think know church history to the extent you do?

No way to know, but I would think a good many to that extent and greater.

I tried to be prepared, but teaching Church history was not my prime focus. Conveying the doctrine of Christ, inviting the presence of the Spirit and stimulating class discussion were my goals.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[William Schryver]

... doubts in a way may become belief.

This is an echo of the kinds of things that John Dehlin has taught his followers. In fact, I believe you have just defined what I henceforth shall call "The Dehlin Doctrine."

[volgadon]

I suspect it is because what he teaches is pleasing unto the carnal mind.

Somewhat like throwing about "the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center," when one says something offensive and the target takes offense.

[William Schryver]

One might call the validators of unfaith the apologist for apostasy.

In 2006, on this very message board, I coined the phrase "apostate evangelists" to describe such individuals. In fact, I'm sure I've used the phrase in some of our conversations over the years.

Apparently they are enjoying some measure of success, for I have observed that there are substantially more of them now than there were in 2006.

[William Schryver]

i hope you are not wondering why so many people despise you. You may not agree with them, but it must be clear when you write and share comments like these that you are being unkind, at best.

Actually, in my estimation, after several years of observation, good old Uncle Lou is just about as kind a man as you will ever come across in your life.

Perhaps the lens through which you are presently viewing life is distorting your perception of things as they really are.

Edited March 1, 2013 by William Schryver

[Mayan Elephant]

Lou,

" Paris vaut bien une messe." I know that one . I served a mission in France. My first Christmas there, we watched the midnight mass with local members. It was held in a pagan arena. The arena had recently been covered to host tennis matches, where bullfights were held. they had a mass there. it was in a city with lots of churches. not quite like geneva with the reformers wall where the protestant movement is memorialized, but there was plenty there in that small city to acknowledge the existence of the protestants and catholics.

so, this phrase, when a King is vying for the throne, converts in an instant from protestant beliefs to catholic beliefs, (not his first conversion) for the sake of getting a throne, means what to you? i read it only that a public declaration of religious beliefs earned him a promotion. are you saying, that the followers of dehlin should just line up and call him king because he converted back to the church? what in the hell is your point?

your comment that you consider dehlin's support on his own website disturbing, is what i consider unkind. it is unkind. anyone with half a heart has to know that these weeks are tough for john, any support he has, he deserves. and i am happy he has friends and supporters.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Mayan Elephant

[William Schryver]

No way to know, but I would think a good many to that extent and greater.

And I strongly suspect that a large number of Latter-day Saints who possess an extensive knowledge of Church history and doctrine, owe a substantial portion of that knowledge to the research and writing of the hundreds of faithful authors who have been published through FARMS over the years.

[Teancum]

This is an echo of the kinds of things that John Dehlin has taught his followers. In fact, I believe you have just defined what I henceforth shall call "The Dehlin Doctrine."

.

Your spin on my excerpt inno way reflects what I meant. And Dehiln did not teach this to his "followers.". My point is that when one discovers certain things and seeks answers at time their beliefs change and are replaced by other beliefs. Some may be better beliefs. Some not. As I noted, you would likely cheer a convert to Mormonism from say Islam but ceratainly not the other way around.

[William Schryver]

i am happy he [John Dehlin] has friends and supporters.

So am I.

I also hope that, as a result of Greg Smith having focused a bright light upon his teachings, he now has fewer followers.

[William Schryver]

You make a remark like this and in the next sentence call someone unkind?

I have also often noted that the irony chip is the first thing to malfunction when an ex-Mormon walks out the chapel doors.

[Mayan Elephant]

And I strongly suspect that a large number of Latter-day Saints who possess an extensive knowledge of Church history and doctrine, owe a substantial portion of that knowledge to the research and writing of the hundreds of faithful authors who have been published through FARMS over the years.

maybe we have finally hit common ground. I doubt it. but maybe.

1. we agree. there is a subset of lds members who possess extensive knowledge of church history. i agree about that. i think it is a very very very small subset.

2. that small subset has probably garnered information from fair and farms. if not all of them, at least the largest majority know farms.

where we disagree.

1. that subset of people has not, even in a small percentage, collected their information exclusively from farms.

2. the larger group, those that do not have a grasp of church history, can be devastated when they are faced with undiscovered history. they may even leave the church.

[David T]

So am I.

I also hope that, as a result of Greg Smith having focused a bright light upon his teachings, he now has fewer followers.

Do you really think Greg pointed out anything Dehlin's 'followers' hadn't already seen? Most likely, they've listened to more of his podcasts than Greg, and followed his Facebook more closely than Greg.

Edited March 1, 2013 by David T

[William Schryver]

Do you really think Greg pointed out anything Dehlin's 'followers' hadn't already seen? Most likely, they've listened to more of his podcasts than Greg, and followed his Facebook more closely than Greg.

Irrelevant.

By shining a bright light on Dehlin, his capacity to attract followers under the same terms as before has been severely (and permanently) compromised.

Edited March 1, 2013 by William Schryver

[Mayan Elephant]

Irrelevant.

By shining a bright light on Dehlin, his capacity to attract followers under the same terms as before has been severely compromised.

you are flattering yourself and your buddies to think that was a bright light. however, you are right that the subject of the light, be it dim or bright, was dehlin and not mormon stories as a publisher or as a community.

will, do you think this review will provide more followers of the apologists? i would think that would be a higher priority than just knocking down dehlin.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Mayan Elephant

[diahman]

These are excellent suggestions, though I wonder if they inadvertently ignore the essential purpose of academia-i.e. to educate.

To explain what I mean by this, I will tell a story (as my mentor, Lou, is fond of saying). Awhile back, and for several years, I was employed as an instructor for a large, multi-national corporation. And in accordance with best practices, my superiors would often observe and critique my instructions. And, while this was all well and good, they would go to great lengths picking apart the way I was dressed, the lack of favored hand gestures and vocal intonations, the poor aesthetic quality of my course material, the seemingly lack of flow of my presentation, my need to constantly consult my notes, and most importantly, my noticeable departure from the course outline prepared by the department's curriculum designers.

In short, their criticism had everything to do with form, and little or nothing to do with function, or more importantly, results. In spite of their professional background, or even perhaps because of their professional background (as contrasted with my lack thereof), they didn't consider the most important aspect of what I was about. They didn't stop to assess whether my students were actually learning, and how well they were learning.

Had they done so, they would have found, as I had (I tested my students, not only in class, but by observing them in the work environment), that their grasp of the material was superior, if not far superior, to students under other instructors tutelage. The fact that students had expressed preferences to me over other instructors, also didn't clue in my superiors.

This is the long way of saying that your suggestions, while good in one respect for distinguishing good academics, seem overly focused on form, at the expense of function and results. To me, the best test of academics is how well it informs and teaches.

On that basis, I would give Greg's paper an "A", since I learned considerable by reading it.

Yet, I can respect that others my see it differently.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, first I'm sorry to hear about some of the unfortunate parts of your previous job; although I'm glad to hear that you moved on (to bigger and better things, I imagine). I get what you're saying as far as results are concerned; and I'm wondering if that doesn't fit into what I've listed as number 6: A good paper contextualizes itself in larger issues at stake (i.e., it answers the "so what" question). What I have in mind here is that a good paper answers the question, "So why should we care?" It also situates itself in larger issues (in the case under discussion, issues about doubt in the LDS community, why communities such as Mormon Stories draws people in, etc.). Perhaps this is something different than you had in mind, in which case I would be happy to add a number 7 to the list: A good paper adds value to the reader's life.

Now, I'm not quite as ready as you to provide a grade for Greg's paper in this category; but do you agree that it's possible to have high marks in one category, but low marks in another (say an 'A' for a thesis, but a 'D' in taking dissenting evidence into account)?

[Daniel Peterson]

i hope you are not wondering why so many people despise you. You may not agree with them, but it must be clear when you write and share comments like these that you are being unkind, at best.

How kind of you! You're charity itself!

Alright. That's enough. I've had it. I'm absolutely sick and tired of certain people who, in order to protest the alleged nastiness of us, their targets, routinely say and do mean-spirited things that none of us -- the supposedly mean-spirited "mopologists" -- would ever dream of saying or doing. Cura te ipsum.

And I want to go on record here to say that one of the most disgusting of the many disgusting aspects of this extraordinarily hypocritical form of self-righteousness is the sheer slobbering hatred focused by such folks on Lou Midgley -- who is, by the way, one of my favorite people on the planet.

[Mayan Elephant]

How kind of you! You're charity itself!

Alright. That's enough. I've had it. I'm absolutely sick and tired of certain people who, in order to protest the alleged nastiness of us, their targets, routinely say and do mean-spirited things that none of us -- the supposedly mean-spirited "mopologists" -- would ever dream of saying or doing. Cura te ipsum.

And I want to go on record here to say that one of the most disgusting of the many disgusting aspects of this extraordinarily hypocritical form of self-righteousness is the sheer slobbering hatred focused by such folks on Lou Midgley -- who is, by the way, one of my favorite people on the planet.

that doesn't address the point of my post. lou posted something where he seems upset or concerned that john has supporters on his own website, while also referencing the support of a converted leader (in this case a french potential king). lou may be your favorite person, but he posted something where he was disappointed that dehlin had the same support lou seems to have here on this board. lou seemed to be very critical of anyone that would support dehlin, even with dehlin's conversion (like the same king he referenced) to the church they both share.

[Daniel Peterson]

that doesn't address the point of my post.

It addressed the one aspect of your post that I cared to address: your truly nasty comment to Lou, which immediately preceded your brief paean to "kindness."

[Mayan Elephant]

listen dan, i know what it is like to have a friend. even a few friends. and sometimes a lot of friends. when i was 17 years old in a broke family with my huge ambitions and working my tail off for a paper company, i got lucky enough to end up in the boss's office for a lot of reasons. he said something to me. he said, if at any time in your life you're able to count five people that care about you as much as you care about them, you are lucky. i had just lost a huge sale of toilet paper to another salesman. i wanted to punch people. it was toilet paper. i felt betrayed by the process. but there i was, in the boss's office. getting a lesson about how to count friends, people that care as much about me as i care about them.

no doubt. you care as much about lou as he cares about you. i would never challenge that. in fact, i would say you two seem lucky to be together on this journey. we are lucky to have anyone at any point in our journey that cares as much for us as we care about them.

but, your friendship does not overcome the facts and the details. you appear to be the supervisor of this crew. lou is a sledgehammering piece of the group. he said it again today. he is upset when others have support for something he does not condone. that is not so cool. honestly, i think an apology is in order but even suggesting it will probably just rain down insults and judgments.

This thread is about the article. It is not about you, Lou, or Dan. Stop the pot stirring if you want to stay the thread.

[awyatt]

This makes me wonder where the elephant man was when JD was here decrying apologists using much stronger words than Lou. Or why he stays silent in the light of comments by those who slander non-anonymous apologists.

Hmmmm......

[Daniel Peterson]

The double standard is consistent and breathtakingly unashamed.

[Mayan Elephant]

The double standard is consistent and breathtakingly unashamed.

meaning?