What Is Salvation

[Rob Osborn]

I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with an interpretation of Moses 1:39 that sets the bar for Christ's work and his glory at the Telestial level. I believe He is aiming much higher than that.

Who says that the bar is set for the telestial glory? There is much doctrine concerning the plan of salvation we do not have in stone. For instance- The temple teaches us that we are already in the telestial kingdom and that from here we will go to the terrestrial kingdom and from there to the celestial.

[treeface]

Who says that the bar is set for the telestial glory? There is much doctrine concerning the plan of salvation we do not have in stone. For instance- The temple teaches us that we are already in the telestial kingdom and that from here we will go to the terrestrial kingdom and from there to the celestial.

If the condition of "immortality and eternal life" is met by those who just barely squeak into the Telestial kingdom, then by that interpretation that's where the bar is set. Christ has accomplished his work and his glory when we make it to the Telestial kingdom.

If on the other hand the bar is actually set much higher, then either "immortality" or "eternal life" (and probably the latter) means something much higher than the Telestial level. That's what I'm saying.

I agree 100% with your interpretation that this earth is the Telestial kingdom. I also agree 100% with your interpretation that the plan is for us to progress from here to the Terrestrial and thence to the Celestial. I believe the Celestial is where the bar is set, and that calls for a re-examination of our definition of "eternal life".

Edited December 12, 2012 by treeface

[Rob Osborn]

If the condition of "immortality and eternal life" is met by those who just barely squeak into the Telestial kingdom, then by that interpretation that's where the bar is set. Christ has accomplished his work and his glory when we make it to the Telestial kingdom.

If on the other hand the bar is actually set much higher, then either "immortality" or "eternal life" (and probably the latter) means something much higher than the Telestial level. That's what I'm saying.

I agree 100% with your interpretation that this earth is the Telestial kingdom. I also agree 100% with your interpretation that the plan is for us to progress from here to the Terrestrial and thence to the Celestial. I believe the Celestial is where the bar is set, and that calls for a re-examination of our definition of "eternal life".

Now we are starting to get to the real heart of the matter!

Through my own study and observation I am convinced that salvation/ eternal life is not achieved until we reach the celestial glory. Because I also believe that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are but temporary stages of the earths progression, it thus makes sense that all of the saved which comes afterthe millennium, all receive celestial glory. Under this modified view of the plan of salvation, the doctrines of Christ found in the NT and BoM fit perfectly and words and terms need no radical redefining.

[treeface]

Now we are starting to get to the real heart of the matter!

Through my own study and observation I am convinced that salvation/ eternal life is not achieved until we reach the celestial glory. Because I also believe that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are but temporary stages of the earths progression, it thus makes sense that all of the saved which comes afterthe millennium, all receive celestial glory. Under this modified view of the plan of salvation, the doctrines of Christ found in the NT and BoM fit perfectly and words and terms need no radical redefining.

So it's sort of like "you say potato, I say potato"...

(hmmm, that didn't really work, did it?)

In other words, it looks like we were just defining terms differently. It's nice to meet a fellow progression-between-kingdoms heretic!

Edited December 13, 2012 by treeface

[Maidservant]

What is the Greek word and Hebrew word used in the Bible in the places where it has been translated as salvation or saved? Is there another concept we could learn from knowing these words?

[pogi]

Now we are starting to get to the real heart of the matter!

Through my own study and observation I am convinced that salvation/ eternal life is not achieved until we reach the celestial glory. Because I also believe that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are but temporary stages of the earths progression, it thus makes sense that all of the saved which comes afterthe millennium, all receive celestial glory. Under this modified view of the plan of salvation, the doctrines of Christ found in the NT and BoM fit perfectly and words and terms need no radical redefining.

Interesting belief that the lower kingdoms are temporary stages of earths progression. I personally find it hard to believe. We are taught that assignment to a kingdom happens post final judgment. We are taught that those in the lower kingdoms are not in family units. If what you say is true, and this life is just a temporary stage of a lower glory, then we should not be allowed to be with our famillies at this time. Indeed, the earth itself may go through phases, or degrees of glory, but they are not considered "kingdoms" of glory. The kingdoms are only found post judgment. Joseph saw visions of the Telestial Kingdom, if what he saw was simply the Telestial state that the earth is now in, well then, I see that vision everyday.

[Rob Osborn]

Interesting belief that the lower kingdoms are temporary stages of earths progression. I personally find it hard to believe. We are taught that assignment to a kingdom happens post final judgment. We are taught that those in the lower kingdoms are not in family units. If what you say is true, and this life is just a temporary stage of a lower glory, then we should not be allowed to be with our famillies at this time. Indeed, the earth itself may go through phases, or degrees of glory, but they are not considered "kingdoms" of glory. The kingdoms are only found post judgment. Joseph saw visions of the Telestial Kingdom, if what he saw was simply the Telestial state that the earth is now in, well then, I see that vision everyday.

Well, this earth is a "kingdom", it just happens that Joseph Smith revealed in the temple endowment concerning the plan of salvation that this earth we now live in is "the telestial kingdom". Glory means light and truth. This earth has the glory of the Holy Ghost. So, it does have glory, and, it is a kingdom. Therefore it is a kingdom of glory.

[Robert F. Smith]

What is the Greek word and Hebrew word used in the Bible in the places where it has been translated as salvation or saved? Is there another concept we could learn from knowing these words?

I covered the Hebrew words used for "salvation; to save," above. Jesus is taken from the Hebrew "Salvation, Savior." In Greek that is Soter, and soteria, from which we get soteriology, the doctrine or theory of salvation..

[treeface]

Interesting belief that the lower kingdoms are temporary stages of earths progression. I personally find it hard to believe. We are taught that assignment to a kingdom happens post final judgment. We are taught that those in the lower kingdoms are not in family units. If what you say is true, and this life is just a temporary stage of a lower glory, then we should not be allowed to be with our famillies at this time. Indeed, the earth itself may go through phases, or degrees of glory, but they are not considered "kingdoms" of glory. The kingdoms are only found post judgment. Joseph saw visions of the Telestial Kingdom, if what he saw was simply the Telestial state that the earth is now in, well then, I see that vision everyday.

Hi pogi, I hope to find time to write you a decent reply in the next day or so, with some supporting evidence from the scriptures and from Joseph Smith. For now, just consider the possibility that 1) God doesn't give up on us; and 2) everyone who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom actually deserves to be there - nobody gets in on a freebie technicality.

[treeface]

Follow-up to pogi: I don' think it is explicitly taught in the scriptures that progression after this life can include progression from one kingdom to another, but here is a train of ideas that I believe is consistent with that possibility. Let's start out with the lowest of the three kingdoms of glory:

D&C 76:84 The telestial kingdom consists of those who are thrust down to hell.

D&C 19:3-12 "Everlasting punishment" and "eternal punishment" are not really endless and eternal; God is using harsh language to make a point to those who otherwise probably wouldn't pay attention. So perhaps a person's stay in the telestial world isn't necessarily permanent.

D&C 76:88 Those in the telestial kingdom will be heirs of salvation (see also 138:59), so if "salvation" = something higher than the telestial level, then the telestial level is temporary.

D&C 6:13: Salvation is the greatest of all the gifts of God, so "heirs of salvation" almost certainly must mean something higher than "trapped for all eternity in the telestial kingdom".

D&C 88:22-24: "For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory." Notice that this is all stated in the present tense! Change your present, change the level of law that you abide, and you change the kingdom that you can abide.

D&C 128:18 We without our dead cannot be saved, which implies that your salvation isn't complete until every person you are connected to is saved as well. That will certainly include people who qualify for the Telestial kingdom.

D&C 76:86,87 Those in the lower kingdoms are ministered to by those in the higher kingdoms. Why bother unless there is hope for them to come up higher? Just as there is hope for us here on this Telestial world to go up higher.

3 Nephi 27:27 tells us what we're supposed to become: "Therefore, what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I am." This tells us what the goal is: To become the kind of person Jesus Christ is. The goal is not to get into the Celestial Kingdom on a technicality, but to become the real deal. That is going to take a long, long time.

Moses 1:39: "This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." So Jesus' job is to get us to "eternal life", which I believe means the Celestial Kingdom. Will He succeed? D&C 3:1 answers that.

What then is the path to the Celestial Kingdom? Is it merely to cry "Lord, Lord" at the right time and place? Of course not. Here is a description of what eternal progression looks like, from the King Follet Discourse: "Here, then, is eternal life [part of "my work and my glory"] -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace..." Yes, I meant to stop in mid-sentence; the point I want to make here is that eternal progression is little by little... that's how Gods got to be Gods. It took a while.

Edited to insert another relevant Joseph Smith quote posted by Calmoriah in another thread (it might be her signature, but I can't read her signature on my computer): "When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world." (emphasis Calmoriah's - I just copied & pasted)

Now according to LDS doctrine, the resurrection preceds the judgment. But maybe there is more than one resurrection, and maybe there is more than one judgment (although obviously it's the next one coming up that is of most pressing interest to us)... strange idea I know, but hear me out.

Let's look at a scripture that's clearly about the resurrection, and see if there is anything implied that isn't obvious at first glance. D&C 93:33: "Spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy." Okay, what about those resurrected into one of the lower kingdoms? By definition they have not received a fulness of joy, so if that scripture is true, their spirit and element have not yet been inseparably connected. This implies that they are not yet immortal (part of "my work and my glory"), as apparently their spirit and element can still be separated (what we call "death"), and evidently there is still a higher resurrection, a permanent one, characterized by a "fulness of joy".

But what about multiple judgments? Let us turn once again to Joseph Smith's final public sermon, the King Follet Discourse, taking up were we left off earlier: "... from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."

Did you catch that? We go from "exaltation to exaltation", which means that we are exalted multiple times (multiple judgments where we pass with flying colors), and then, AFTER these multiple exaltations, comes the resurrection of the dead (obviously the higher, permanent, "fulness of joy" one), and we are able to dwell in "everlasting burnings" (that one goes over my head).

Anyway, I think that's a few data points along the path of eternal progression. Not saying it's proof, just that it's something to think about.

And finally, these arguments don't come from any scripture or prophet, so there's no authority behind them:

1) If we who are weak and impatient consistently love our own wayward children enough that we'd never give up on them and turn them away if they wanted to come back, does it make sense that our Father would give up on his?

2) Does it make sense that a perfect Creator would create so imperfectly that many if not most of his creations utterly fail to eventually live up to the measure of their creation, even with eternity on their side?

I'm not saying everyone definitely makes it, because I think it's theoretically possible to choose darkness over light at every possible turn, if one is determined to do so. But I do think that in the heavens we will be in whatever kingdom whose law we abide, present tense.

Edited December 17, 2012 by treeface

[Rob Osborn]

One other thing about "ladders"-

Even as Joseph Smith described ascending the ladder one rung at a time, he also saw in vision the old testament prophets "Jacobs ladder" and described the three principle rungs as the telestial kingdom, terrestrial kingdom, and celestial kingdom.