The Evangelization Of The Islamic World

[Mudcat]

There is a difference between fighting a just war, and fighting a war as an aggressor. Neither the Qur'an nor the Bible advocate fighting a war as an aggressor; but they do advocate fighting a just war.

So Muhammad was not an aggressor in his military career? You believe all his conquests were just?

What you are doing is justifying the the actions of Islamic extremists on their own terms, which means that you are basically joining their ranks.

No I am not justifying Islamic extremists, I strongly disagree with their actions and on my view I think such actions are unjustifiable. You are correct that I am pointing you to some statements made by their prophet, that give them impetus to go about such business. The only justification I think they have is self justification. What I am saying is that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that the Qur'an offers a sense of justification for aggression and terrorism. Islamic terrorists don't have a problem finding these things... you on the other hand are kidding yourself by denying that the Qu'ran doesn't offer such.

Anybody can interpret the Bible or the Qur'an in ways to justify their own unrighteous acts, and many do. The Crusaders in the Middle Ages who invaded Islamic lands and committed terrible crimes against innocent, peace loving Muslims who were far better than themselves in moral values, and in culture and refinement did so on the basis of their interpretation of the Bible. The truth is that all religions have had, and continue to have their own minority groups of extremists and fanatics who have interpreted their scripture texts in ways to justify their actions. Unfortunately it is the minority extremists who most often get the headlines. Islam as a whole is not hostile to Christianity or to Christ, and never has been. But I see many evangelical Christians expressing hatred towards Muslims and Islam. I would consider them to be the modern equivalents of Christisn fanatics and extremists.

On the Crusades, at least the 4th Crusade, the Pope apologized for that in 2004. Admirable that after 900 years someone was willing to admit and apologize for acting inconsistently with the Christian paradigm.

The thing I think that makes the Christian paradigm superlative is that actually, over the course of history we have worked quite a bit out. You don't see Christians going about slaughtering other Christ believers as you have seen and still see with Islam. The same interfaith struggles of Islam have yet to be resolved in a peaceful manner amongst themselves.

Sure you have some Christians that don't care much for the Islamic faith, they see it as war and terror engine for those who seek power. Not only do the more radical elements of their faith kill other Muslims, they like targeting Christians as well. You might want to think they are fanatics. Maybe they are but if they take violent aggressive action, to do so, they have to act inconsistently with their belief system... I suppose that is why you don't see much of it. However the Muslim, doesn't have to act inconsistently with their. Aggression towards unbelievers is built into it.

They see things in black and white, and interpret the Bible inappropriately to justify their attitudes and behaviors. I see no difference between them in spirit and the Islamic fanatics and extremists who do the same with the Qur'an. They may appear to be poles apart, but in reality they drink from the same source.

I would say the same angst to kill would likely be common thread they share, but I would disagree that the impetus to destroy believers of other religions is something that is actually a message that can be extracted from Christ's teachings unless you have a Phd. in mental gymnastics or something.

[canard78]

The thing I think that makes the Christian paradigm superlative is that actually, over the course of history we have worked quite a bit out. You don't see Christians going about slaughtering other Christ believers as you have seen and still see with Islam. The same interfaith struggles of Islam have yet to be resolved in a peaceful manner amongst themselves.

I'm curious to know why a thread about sharing the gospel with Muslims is being distorted into a opportunity to criticise them. There's a risk of us sounding like evangelical anti-mormons who seek any possible problem with the church and focus only on that, instead of recognising the good in us.

For every 1 muslim who twists their religion to justify aggression there are many, many more who do not. Our own Mormon moments (MMM) should encourage us to not be overly judgmental of the fanatical minorities in an otherwise peaceful religion. Our Bible has many examples of near ethnic cleansing of thousands where the 'chosen people' were most certainly the aggressors.

As for there being no Christians left using their faith to justify violence. You must have heard of 'the troubles' in Northern Ireland? This is still an ongoing problem with many 'no go' areas in NI for Catholics/Protestants.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/The_Troubles

Edited November 24, 2012 by canard78

[harfad]

So Muhammad was not an aggressor in his military career? You believe all his conquests were just?

No. He was no more an aggressor in his military career than Joshua was in his.

What I am saying is that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that the Qur'an offers a sense of justification for aggression and terrorism.

The Qur'an does that no more than the Bible does. If you want to look for that kind of thing, you can find it in the Bible as much as in the Qur'an.

On the Crusades, at least the 4th Crusade, the Pope apologized for that in 2004. Admirable that after 900 years someone was willing to admit and apologize for acting inconsistently with the Christian paradigm.

I don't see how that alters the fact that Christians are as capable of committing acts of violence and terror in the name of God as are the Muslims.

The thing I think that makes the Christian paradigm superlative is that actually, over the course of history we have worked quite a bit out. You don't see Christians going about slaughtering other Christ believers as you have seen and still see with Islam. The same interfaith struggles of Islam have yet to be resolved in a peaceful manner amongst themselves.

Sure you have some Christians that don't care much for the Islamic faith, they see it as war and terror engine for those who seek power. Not only do the more radical elements of their faith kill other Muslims, they like targeting Christians as well. You might want to think they are fanatics. Maybe they are but if they take violent aggressive action, to do so, they have to act inconsistently with their belief system... I suppose that is why you don't see much of it. However the Muslim, doesn't have to act inconsistently with their. Aggression towards unbelievers is built into it.

That is not an accurate description of Islam that I see today, or in the past.

I would say the same angst to kill would likely be common thread they share, but I would disagree that the impetus to destroy believers of other religions is something that is actually a message that can be extracted from Christ's teachings unless you have a Phd. in mental gymnastics or something.

I agree that nothing like that can be extracted from Christ’s teachings. The fact that they still manage to extract it says something about them.

[Nathair/|\]

I'm curious to know why a thread about sharing the gospel with Islam is being distorted into 'let's find ways to bash them.' There's a risk of us starting to sound like evangelical anti-mormons who seek any possible problem with the church and focusing only on that, instead of recognising the good in us.

I would suggest that for every 1 person muslim who twists their religion to justify aggression there are many, many more who do not.

As for Christians no longer using their faith to justify violence. You must have heard of 'the troubles.' This is still an ongoing problem with many 'no go' areas in NI for Catholics/Protestants.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/The_Troubles

[Mudcat]

I'm curious to know why a thread about sharing the gospel with Muslims is being distorted into a opportunity to criticise them. There's a risk of us sounding like evangelical anti-mormons who seek any possible problem with the church and focus only on that, instead of recognising the good in us.

For every 1 muslim who twists their religion to justify aggression there are many, many more who do not. Our own Mormon moments (MMM) should encourage us to not be overly judgmental of the fanatical minorities in an otherwise peaceful religion. Our Bible has many examples of near ethnic cleansing of thousands where the 'chosen people' were most certainly the aggressors.

Hi Canard,

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving. I bolded a bit here. To clarify, I am not LDS. I am a non-LDS Christian of the evangelical sort so I don't make any pretense to speak for LDS on the matter.

As the skew from the track, my first post (#53) was bit of a jest, but I did state that there were countries hostile to Christ. Hafad disagrees and we are still working that out.

As to the twisting of religion, I would agree that events like MMM aren't theologically compatible with the LDS paradigm, as I understand. So yes you would have to do a bit of doctrinal twisting to come to some notion that MMM was actually a theologically compatible event with LDS teachings.

However, I don't think Islamist's actually have to twist much of anything to persecute anyone who believes contrary to them. Such things are part of their belief system. That has been my point actually. Muslim countries have and do persecute Christians regularly.

http://www.persecution.org/2012/05/20/beaten-bombed-beheaded-muslim-persecution-of-christians/

On topic, if Islamic countries want to expel Christians, persecute Islamic converts to Christianity, persecute Christians that proselytize Muslims, etc. the it would seem to me that evangelistic efforts in those countries would like be better allocated in other areas.

I don't think the note that Muslims are killing each other is so much a criticism as it is a flat fact.

As for there being no Christians left using their faith to justify violence. You must have heard of 'the troubles' in Northern Ireland? This is still an ongoing problem with many 'no go' areas in NI for Catholics/Protestants.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/The_Troubles

Fair point Canard, I'll capitulate a bit to a well noted example. I will say that Ireland's troubles of Christian vs Christian sectarian violence are somewhat of an aberration on the Christian scene. Unlike what we see going on in predominantly Muslim countries.

But the situation in Ireland seems to have made great improvement over time.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jun/10/deaths-in-northern-ireland-conflict-data

No civilian casualties from 2007 forward. 2 British military casualties and 4 total casualties from the partisans.

Regards,

Mudcat

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The silver lining is that if you make errors, you must be alive...

Kidding, but we are all fallible.

That would make me real alive. I hope you and friends and family in Israel are OK...my prayers have been with you. Also with GG, I see she has been having a lot of weather. Edited November 25, 2012 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I am not LDS, so take it with a grain of salt. But.......

I have heard it from a completely incredulous and utterly untrustworthy source, that The CoJCoLDS had a special team of missionaries that it deployed to countries that were hostile to Christ... like those that were predominantly Islamic.

Apparently, according to my source, there was only one prerequisite to such an assignment.

On further inquiry of said source (henceforth known as "Sheep Throat"), it was revealed to me that the singular prerequisite was that "Danger" had to literally be the candidates middle name.

"Danger" is my middle name, when dreaming I am a tough guy and I have not been deployed to every inch of the former Empire...but close. I was called home because I let my wife drive me around. Who knew driving is not allowed for women in so many places...I just wanted a nap.

[cdowis]

We have (proselyting) missionaries in Turkey and Pakistan. There were missionaries in Iran in the 70s.

Also in Lebanon. That political situation was interesting, since the political parties are divided up by the populace according to religion. Thus, it was very tricky to do missionary work outside the Christian groups, since that would have political implications.

[cdowis]

I was in the Germany Hamburg Mission (1994-1996), and we were not allowed to teach Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians,

There was an Iranian working as a translator in Afghanistan who became a convert. He could not be baptized there so he waited until he visited relatives in the USA. It is interesting that he became interested in the church because he moved from one military unit to another, and was impressed that in almost every group, the LDS person stood out from the rest in morality.

The military keeps his identity secret for his own safety. For an Iranian to become a Christian is basically a death sentence.

Edited November 24, 2012 by cdowis

[volgadon]

That would make me real alive. I hope you and friends and family in Israel are OK...my prayers have been with you. Also with GG, I she hasbeen having a lot of weather.

Thank you very much for your concern! So far everyone is ok.

[Gervin]

For an Iranian to become a Christian is basically a death sentence.

gross exaggeration noted

[tyler90az]

Muslims are no more violent then us Latter-day Saints. There are extremists in both of our religions. We should know that the extremists will get the most attention, fundametalist church for example. The only Muslims shown on American tv are terrorists. Just because they are the only ones show does not mean all Muslims are terrorists. Far from it, when I was in Basic Training I attended an 'islamic church' with a buddy. They did not go to mosque due to time restraints(or convenience) they just taught classes. They are more like us Christians then we think, they are an abrahamic religion also.

I also want to get a discussion started. Of all the religious texts I have read the Book of Mormon is the most violent. To make fun of the Quran for being violent is essentialy throwing a stone at yourself.

Edited November 25, 2012 by tyler90az

[Nathair/|\]

Muslims are no more violent then us Latter-day Saints. There are extremists in both of our religions. We should know that the extremists will get the most attention, fundametalist church for example. The only Muslims shown on American tv are terrorists. Just because they are the only ones show does not mean all Muslims are terrorists. Far from it, when I was in Basic Training I attended an 'islamic church' with a buddy. They did not go to mosque due to time restraints(or convenience) they just taught classes. They are more like us Christians then we think, they are an abrahamic religion also.

I also want to get a discussion started. Of all the religious texts I have read the Book of Mormon is the most violent. To make fun of the Quran for being violent is essentialy throwing a stone at yourself.

Have you read the Tain Bo Cuailgne or the Icelandic Sagas?

[cdowis]

I also want to get a discussion started. Of all the religious texts I have read the Book of Mormon is the most violent.

Nowhere does the BOM advocate or condone violence. It describes, sometimes in detail, violence resulting from sin and the rejection of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The basic statement is that violence comes from evil, and it is sometimes necessary to defend ourselves, our families, and our freedom to practice our religion.

[volgadon]

Nowhere does the BOM advocate or condone violence.

It does. To preempt the CFR, there is Nephi slaying Laban, there is also Moroni's intended march on Zarahemla.

[canard78]

Nowhere does the BOM advocate or condone violence.

To add to Volgadon's there are (from memory) several others. There's the 'slaughter' of outnumbered, surrounded Lamanites by waters of Sidon (including a scalping), the attack on the kingmen (including executing any who won't support the democracy), the 'electricuting' of Laman/Lemuel by Nephi, King Noah being burned at the stake to fulfil Abinadi's words, Teancum stabbing two men to death while they slept in their tents (he's later called a great man like Captain Moroni), Ammon killing some and mutilating others as part of his missionary efforts, Sherem the anti-christ is struck down and dies as a sign of God's power. Do you need more?

I'd suggest there are many cases where violence is perpetrated as part of God's work in the Book of Mormon.

[canard78]

Hi Canard,

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving. I bolded a bit here. To clarify, I am not LDS. I am a non-LDS Christian of the evangelical sort so I don't make any pretense to speak for LDS on the matter.

As the skew from the track, my first post (#53) was bit of a jest, but I did state that there were countries hostile to Christ. Hafad disagrees and we are still working that out.

As to the twisting of religion, I would agree that events like MMM aren't theologically compatible with the LDS paradigm, as I understand. So yes you would have to do a bit of doctrinal twisting to come to some notion that MMM was actually a theologically compatible event with LDS teachings.

However, I don't think Islamist's actually have to twist much of anything to persecute anyone who believes contrary to them. Such things are part of their belief system. That has been my point actually. Muslim countries have and do persecute Christians regularly.

http://www.persecuti...-of-christians/

On topic, if Islamic countries want to expel Christians, persecute Islamic converts to Christianity, persecute Christians that proselytize Muslims, etc. the it would seem to me that evangelistic efforts in those countries would like be better allocated in other areas.

I don't think the note that Muslims are killing each other is so much a criticism as it is a flat fact.

Fair point Canard, I'll capitulate a bit to a well noted example. I will say that Ireland's troubles of Christian vs Christian sectarian violence are somewhat of an aberration on the Christian scene. Unlike what we see going on in predominantly Muslim countries.

But the situation in Ireland seems to have made great improvement over time.

http://www.guardian....d-conflict-data

No civilian casualties from 2007 forward. 2 British military casualties and 4 total casualties from the partisans.

Regards,

Mudcat

Hi Mudcat. Apologies for my religious presumptions. I appreciate the correction. And I agree, I hope no-one could find any theological justification for barbaric and shameful moment in Mormon history.

It's a fair point that NI is an isolated example. We (hopefully) managed to resolve most of our major inter-Christian persecution religious persecution 300-400 years ago (though even the 1800s still had a fair share). I guess we had a 700 years head-start on Islam so maybe they'll have settled down somewhat in a shorter overall time-span than we managed.

Regarding Muslims and Jesus, I'd agree that they don't accept him as the same way we do, but then they reject the New Testament, so have no reason to. Their Holy Scripture discounts the writings we celebrate. But their Koran still shows high esteem for him.

I'd recommend this (also mentioned in post 72): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

I'd be really interested to hear you feedback if you have the time to read the Wiki entry in full?

[tyler90az]

Hi Mudcat. Apologies for my religious presumptions. I appreciate the correction. And I agree, I hope no-one could find any theological justification for barbaric and shameful moment in Mormon history.

It's a fair point that NI is an isolated example. We (hopefully) managed to resolve most of our major inter-Christian persecution religious persecution 300-400 years ago (though even the 1800s still had a fair share). I guess we had a 700 years head-start on Islam so maybe they'll have settled down somewhat in a shorter overall time-span than we managed.

Regarding Muslims and Jesus, I'd agree that they don't accept him as the same way we do, but then they reject the New Testament, so have no reason to. Their Holy Scripture discounts the writings we celebrate. But their Koran still shows high esteem for him.

I'd recommend this (also mentioned in post 72): http://en.wikipedia..../Jesus_in_Islam

I'd be really interested to hear you feedback if you have the time to read the Wiki entry in full?

Jesus is a prophet to Muslims.

Edited November 25, 2012 by tyler90az

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

gross exaggeration noted

Gross misjustice, when the law is applied. It seldom is...at least what we are told.

[Mudcat]

Hi Mudcat. Apologies for my religious presumptions. I appreciate the correction. And I agree, I hope no-one could find any theological justification for barbaric and shameful moment in Mormon history.

No worries there.

It's a fair point that NI is an isolated example. We (hopefully) managed to resolve most of our major inter-Christian persecution religious persecution 300-400 years ago (though even the 1800s still had a fair share). I guess we had a 700 years head-start on Islam so maybe they'll have settled down somewhat in a shorter overall time-span than we managed.

Your a bit more hopeful about this scenario than I am. Throughout the course of Christian history, there have been schisms and splits..most leading to some sort of conflict but at some point at the very least peaceful tolerance and even ecumenicism as the teachings of Christ seem to forward. These schisms and splits are usually unique to themselves. What I mean by that is something like the, The Great Schism was an issue that was entirely different than The Reformation and the Reformation different from the denominational splits that followed.

With Islam the bloody rift that has existed between Shia and Sunni, has been an ongoing unresolved struggle that has continued since the death of Muhammad. My thinking, is that if that haven't settled the matter peaceably in the last 1,300 years they aren't likely to ever settle it that way.

The key problem, is that it's difficult to separate Islam from government... sort of unidirectional that way. Given that Shias outnumber Sunnis 4 to 1, they may eventually reach peace. But this peace will likely be the result of the conversion and or destruction of one sect.

Regarding Muslims and Jesus, I'd agree that they don't accept him as the same way we do, but then they reject the New Testament, so have no reason to. Their Holy Scripture discounts the writings we celebrate. But their Koran still shows high esteem for him.

I'd recommend this (also mentioned in post 72): http://en.wikipedia..../Jesus_in_Islam

I'd be really interested to hear you feedback if you have the time to read the Wiki entry in full?

I have read through it and have looked at some other sources on the topic as well. It will be later before I can put together a response but hopefully I will get it done later this evening.

Another site you might want to look at is this one.

http://www.truthnet.org/islam/Muslimchrist/2/

It gives a much more detailed view of what was said about Jesus in the Qur'an. The Wiki article has good information, I think.. but the link above just gives some more specifics.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Muslims are no more violent then us Latter-day Saints.

Could you CFR this...we have not been addressing Islam, but those who pervert it. Those you are speaking of and comparing Mormons...where to start?

[canard78]

Your a bit more hopeful about this scenario than I am. Throughout the course of Christian history, there have been schisms and splits..most leading to some sort of conflict but at some point at the very least peaceful tolerance and even ecumenicism as the teachings of Christ seem to forward. These schisms and splits are usually unique to themselves. What I mean by that is something like the, The Great Schism was an issue that was entirely different than The Reformation and the Reformation different from the denominational splits that followed.

With Islam the bloody rift that has existed between Shia and Sunni, has been an ongoing unresolved struggle that has continued since the death of Muhammad. My thinking, is that if that haven't settled the matter peaceably in the last 1,300 years they aren't likely to ever settle it that way.

The key problem, is that it's difficult to separate Islam from government... sort of unidirectional that way. Given that Shias outnumber Sunnis 4 to 1, they may eventually reach peace. But this peace will likely be the result of the conversion and or destruction of one sect.

You make a good point and I'm probably overly-optimistic. There are some comparable periods in Christianity's history of what is essentially cultural/political conflict being justified through religion and I can't help but see the Shia/Sunni issue as a war of culture/history/power, more than it is a fight over theology... even if theology is used to justify/motivate the conflict.

I have read through it and have looked at some other sources on the topic as well. It will be later before I can put together a response but hopefully I will get it done later this evening.

Another site you might want to look at is this one.

http://www.truthnet....Muslimchrist/2/

It gives a much more detailed view of what was said about Jesus in the Qur'an. The Wiki article has good information, I think.. but the link above just gives some more specifics.

I've taken a look at this and appreciate it's detail in listing the references to Jesus and attempting to add some themes/chronology to them. I'm always slightly cautious of reading one religions view on another - even when it's an LDS source.

I know how subjective (and sometimes inaccurate) some descriptions of Mormonism are by writers of other faiths. As such I have to presume that there is some inaccuracy and subjectivity when Christians write about Islam. That's why I prefer to read about Islamic theology from their own writers or, at least from something that is peer reviewed and peer edited like Wikipedia.

While I agree with a lot of what truthnet says it believes on this page: http://www.truthnet.org/index.php/contact/what-does-truthnet-org-believe, I also read that and feel that it reduces their position of authority to be able to inform me what Muslims really believe about Jesus as there's too strong an agenda on truthnet.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It does. To preempt the CFR, there is Nephi slaying Laban, there is also Moroni's intended march on Zarahemla.

In scripture...it is used as a means of defensive posture.

[Stargazer]

Sorry but no. I've written far too many deeply personal things about myself and my ward members, and some countries have very small LDS populations.

I understand.

I've made some guesses in my mind. I will not share them here, but will allow this to remain one of the mysteries of our time!

Edited November 26, 2012 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

I don't know how to express this in a way that doesn't pose some risk of giving offence, but I've heard secondhand stories like this on many occasions, and I've yet to be able to verify one despite having tried multiple times. I've had returned missionaries swear to me that the Church has a policy against teaching Muslims for this very reason. Then I point out to them that missionaries in my mission worked with Muslims regularly and that missionaries in Indonesia do it all the time. The Church clearly has no such policy, and I find these kinds of stories equally suspect.

In addition to Volgadon's witness, here's another:

Yeah Samake

He is apparently the sole Latter-day Saint in Mali, and was a candidate in the coup-interrupted Malian presidential election. In the Wikipedia article it states:

Samake and his family are the only members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) in Mali. Samake first encountered the church through his work with the Peace Corps and Ouelessebougou Alliance. One Peace Corps volunteer left him an English Book of Mormon, which he read. Later, in the US, he wanted to be baptized, but was initially refused because of the LDS Church's policy on baptizing citizens of Islamic countries. Mali is 90% Muslim, and the church worried that if he converted to Mormonism his life would be in danger. After convincing church leaders that Mali is a country with religious freedom, he was baptized in 2000 in New York. He reports that he faces no discrimination in Mali due to his faith.