Nathair/|\ Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I'd like to follow up some recent discussions on Asherah, the bene elohim, etc by discussing who I think they are and why I think it's appropriate to interact with them.In Abraham 3, we learn that pre-mortal men and women were in the council of the gods and that the best and brightest were made rulers among the children of our Father. In chapter 4, we learn that these gods participated in the creation of the earth. Dan MacLellan has demonstrated effectively that Israel was YHWH/Jesus' portion and the rest of the divine council ruled over the other nations, so we don't have to rehash that here, except to say that Plato discussed a distinction between eternal Gods and created gods. I would say that our Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother, the Lord and the Holy Ghost are eternal Gods, ruling over the entire universe. I believe that the rest of the council only has sway within the world where they experience mortality. (What that would mean if we build a colony on Mars, I don't know.) So, in other words, Zeus, Odin, and the rest are our brothers and sisters. Maybe some on this board were once gods of forgotten mythos. As far as Asherah is concerned, if she is not our Mother, I speculate that she may be the pre-mortal Mary. (Don't take that too seriously, but I think it's an interesting idea.) Now, if, as has been suggested, Jeremiah and Nephi approved of the presence of Asherah in the temple at Jerusalem, and if the gods of the earth are our siblings, why can't we have the same kind of relationship we are permitted with mortals who are wiser or more experienced or otherwise know things we don't? If you were a bishop and a member of your ward came to you and said they had met one or more of them and wanted to build the kind of relationship they might have with a professor, for instance?Yours under the heretical oaks,Nathair /|\
Saints Alive Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Seems like that would fall under the multiple OT prohibitions on having other gods unless you want to argue that those only applied to Israel.
Nathair/|\ Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 Seems like that would fall under the multiple OT prohibitions on having other gods unless you want to argue that those only applied to Israel.My argument is that "no other gods before me" means that YHWH takes priority. I'm not suggesting that the person would give them the same honor they give him any more than I give Dan MacLellan or David Bokovoy the same honor as the Lord.
inquiringmind Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 My argument is that "no other gods before me" means that YHWH takes priority. I'm not suggesting that the person would give them the same honor they give him any more than I give Dan MacLellan or David Bokovoy the same honor as the Lord.I'm confused here.Didn't President Hinkley say that we should only pray (talk to, interact with) Heavenly Father?Isn't that official Church doctrine?
TAO Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I'm confused here.Didn't President Hinkley say that we should only pray (talk to, interact with) Heavenly Father?Isn't that official Church doctrine?Yes, he did say we should only pray to Heavenly Father. I'm not sure about talk to/interact with, but the church does tend to prefer to keep things to the usual, I think.
inquiringmind Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure about talk to/interact withIsn't that what "pray" means?How else would mortals talk to or interact with "gods"?Yes, he did say we should only pray to Heavenly Father.And is that the last word?Is it official doctrine? Edited October 12, 2012 by inquiringmind
changed Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) How else would mortals talk to or interact with "gods"?We don't pray to the Holy Spirit, and yet we interact with the Spirit... We don't pray to Jesus, and yet we all have the light of Christ (our conscience) within us to guide and direct us... similar to the Spirit and the light of Christ, I think "The Love of God" is also shed within our hearts... there are many different ways to communicate. Edited October 17, 2012 by changed
changed Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Enoch saw Gaea.Last night I was in a little Jewish group, trying to teach me some Hebrew, and we started talking a little about the words for blood (Dam) and then adam (first blood? or first person? (A - Dom) and the word for Earth (A-Dam-ah) - I started asking a little more about the Hebrew word for Earth, about Adam coming from the Earth, and the name for Earth seemingly being some combination of first-blood-feminine?? that the Earth is Adam with the feminine ending on it? but everyone shied away from it, and we started talking about the words for man/husband (eesh) and woman/wife (eesha) and how you get the word for fire (sh) when the word for G-d (yud-hey) is removed from the combined husband/wife (wife has the yud and hey, husband has the yud in it)Is there anyone on here who knows Hebrew? and could comment on the word for Earth, and how the word G-d is within the word for wife? Edited October 17, 2012 by changed 1
The Nehor Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Isn't that what "pray" means?How else would mortals talk to or interact with "gods"?Visions, dreams, inspiration, face to face, through angelic intermediaries, etc.
The Nehor Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I was Loki.Joseph Smith was Odin. That is why he wanted to bear his soul to someone so badly. He had survived on Yggdrassil for so long and now had vast knowledge.You are not alone Nathair. CS Lewis longed for the day we could propitiate or appreciate local 'powers' without it being idolatry.As to why we cannot do it: Quarantine. Zeus and the like are not real. Sorry. The closest thing we have to other gods here are angels and if one forms a relationship with you go for it. Until then we only have the direct line. Probably for the best. We have the rest of eternity to meet everyone else.
Bill Hamblin Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 It is important to remember that in the Hebrew and early Christian mythos the pagan gods were the fallen bene elohim (Gen. 6:1-4; Deut. 4:19; Isa. 14:12-21; Psalm 82; 2 Cor. 4:4; Rev. 9:20, 12:4; etc.) In the Hebrew and early Christian mythos Zeus, and the other pagan gods, were fallen angels who had deceived the nations into worshipping them.
Nathair/|\ Posted October 28, 2012 Author Posted October 28, 2012 It is important to remember that in the Hebrew and early Christian mythos the pagan gods were the fallen bene elohim (Gen. 6:1-4; Deut. 4:19; Isa. 14:12-21; Psalm 82; 2 Cor. 4:4; Rev. 9:20, 12:4; etc.) In the Hebrew and early Christian mythos Zeus, and the other pagan gods, were fallen angels who had deceived the nations into worshipping them.That's a good point and the only reason I've taken this long to respond is that you deserve a good answer. The only one I have is the first half of Ether 4:12. And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good They've never asked me or any other modern person I know to do anything but good. If I'm right, though, it provides even more for our self-esteem. Not only do we have the potential to be like our Heavenly Father, but we've already done many of the things gods do.
Nathair/|\ Posted November 2, 2012 Author Posted November 2, 2012 One thing I have been asked to do, if I can pull it off, is to get a catering truck and set up a mobile soup kitchen.
TAO Posted November 2, 2012 Posted November 2, 2012 Isn't that what "pray" means?How else would mortals talk to or interact with "gods"?It's one of many definitions. It's a bit iffy on the subjet.And is that the last word?Is it official doctrine?Well, official doctrine is hard to nail down, but President Hinckley had to reprimand somebody about it. So I'd say it's a pretty close to solid rule to follow, so to say. Then again, it'd be best to ask God the Father if you want super-specifics on the issue. I haven't really talked to him about this; there are so many other more important things, tbh =p.
EllenMaksoud Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 I'd like to follow up some recent discussions on Asherah, the bene elohim, etc by discussing who I think they are and why I think it's appropriate to interact with them.In Abraham 3, we learn that pre-mortal men and women were in the council of the gods and that the best and brightest were made rulers among the children of our Father. In chapter 4, we learn that these gods participated in the creation of the earth. Dan MacLellan has demonstrated effectively that Israel was YHWH/Jesus' portion and the rest of the divine council ruled over the other nations, so we don't have to rehash that here, except to say that Plato discussed a distinction between eternal Gods and created gods. I would say that our Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother, the Lord and the Holy Ghost are eternal Gods, ruling over the entire universe. I believe that the rest of the council only has sway within the world where they experience mortality. (What that would mean if we build a colony on Mars, I don't know.) So, in other words, Zeus, Odin, and the rest are our brothers and sisters. Maybe some on this board were once gods of forgotten mythos. As far as Asherah is concerned, if she is not our Mother, I speculate that she may be the pre-mortal Mary. (Don't take that too seriously, but I think it's an interesting idea.) Now, if, as has been suggested, Jeremiah and Nephi approved of the presence of Asherah in the temple at Jerusalem, and if the gods of the earth are our siblings, why can't we have the same kind of relationship we are permitted with mortals who are wiser or more experienced or otherwise know things we don't? If you were a bishop and a member of your ward came to you and said they had met one or more of them and wanted to build the kind of relationship they might have with a professor, for instance?Yours under the heretical oaks,Nathair /|\ Just refreshing my memory a little by actually reading from a paper KJV, it does not sound like a really good idea to be interacting with her. I am curious as to why you would want to displeasure Heavenly Father by doing so?
Nathair/|\ Posted November 3, 2012 Author Posted November 3, 2012 Just refreshing my memory a little by actually reading from a paper KJV, it does not sound like a really good idea to be interacting with her. I am curious as to why you would want to displeasure Heavenly Father by doing so?Before I answer, are you familiar with the Documentary Hypothesis? My argument depends on it.
EllenMaksoud Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 I am relatively new as a Mormon, but am very familiar with the Bible from years of being evangelical. I am somewhat familiar with the Documentary Hypothesis.
Nathair/|\ Posted November 3, 2012 Author Posted November 3, 2012 I am relatively new as a Mormon, but am very familiar with the Bible from years of being evangelical. I am somewhat familiar with the Documentary Hypothesis.As you probably know, The Prophet Joseph Smith explained: "I believe the Bible as it read when it came from the pen of the original writers. Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (TPJS, p. 327).I believe that the Deuteronomists were among those Brother Joseph was speaking of, and am more comfortable with the teachings of Jeremiah and Nephi.
EllenMaksoud Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 I have known some Jewish scholars. They are amused at some parts of the pentatuch that we totally do not understand. I remember the days of hearing loud evangelists shout out, "The Bible is the pure, innerant word of God". LOL
Nathair/|\ Posted November 3, 2012 Author Posted November 3, 2012 I have known some Jewish scholars. They are amused at some parts of the pentatuch that we totally do not understand. I remember the days of hearing loud evangelists shout out, "The Bible is the pure, innerant word of God". LOL Yeah, that always amuses me. In reading, understanding, and applying the bible, I tend to trust restoration scripture and the teachings of the prophets first, then use my best judgement where that's silent. Of course, if it matters, I always follow James 1:5 if I think it makes any difference whether I'm reading it right.
EllenMaksoud Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 Yes, well restoration scripture really rankles some of the old guard Christians. Those who I encountered years ago believed the last part of the book of Revelation applied to the whole of what we call the Bible, when in fact, on careful reading, it applies only to that book. Coming to the LDS church has been astonishingly educational to me. When I was first studying with the sisters, I used to get on Youtube to listen to anti Mormon videos. Then I would research their arguments and would mostly find them flawed with error. It seems that the whole world runs on error.
Calm Posted November 3, 2012 Posted November 3, 2012 It seems that the whole world runs on error. So often true. Why is it so much easier for some to accept lies rather than truth?
Robert F. Smith Posted November 4, 2012 Posted November 4, 2012 My argument is that "no other gods before me" means that YHWH takes priority. I'm not suggesting that the person would give them the same honor they give him any more than I give Dan MacLellan or David Bokovoy the same honor as the Lord.That depends on who you take Yahweh to be. If Yahweh is Christ, then II Nephi 32:9 applies:. . . ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, . . . Which would make Yahweh-Christ subordinate to the Father-Elohim, worlds without end.
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