KevinG Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Take your pickEnglish to Tongan translatorAnd since English is the most widely spoken language among the Tongan people we're splitting hairs here anyway.Send 'em your copy of "No Man Knows my History" if you are concerned about their English history of polygamy literacy levels. 1
KevinG Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Africa, South America, the Pacific Islands, Asia et al. where because of socio/economic/education and cultural issues prevent access to Church History and research. I'm not sure how you could argue that reality?Your turn for a CFR on your quaint notions of the natives of Africa, Pacific Islands and Asia are illiterate when it comes to Western Culture and History (specifically anything that requires internet access).
KevinG Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 PS repeating something is a "reality" over and over again does not make it so. Adding insulting language about those you disagree with undermines your credibility.To refocus the discussion - you contend that the LDS Church has not done enough to make information on Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy (the good, the bad and the ugly) to investigators and members. the counter was to show you volumes of information on the subject now available to members and nonmembers alike along with the efforts of the Church to publish source materials like the Joseph Smith papers.So you counter that some people have no access to these things.Taking that at face value (which is very generous in this day and age), what is your remedy for this perceived issue?
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Nonsense. Please calm down and stop the insults. Why don't you prove your accusations before asking others to prove the negative?Please show a survey or study that tells us that Tongans are more ignorant of LDS history than North American Mormons?With the highest percentage of LDS to general population in the world and a history with the church that goes back to the 1800s I'm guessing they aren't as ignorant of our history as you propose.How do suppose Elder Groberg would respond to a letter of concern that the natives of Tonga are not well versed enough in Mormon history about polygamy?I only have anecdotal evidence. However, as I've said before, it is entirely possible to sample a small group of people and project those findings onto a larger group and that's what I have done. And I have admitted from the beginning that this was my basis for my assumptions about Tongans. Actually you could add simple logic to my basis for my assumptions simply because I analyzed the availability of information (in many forms) to my people and made some simple deductions. And the oral traditions are silent on issues like Joseph's alleged dishonesty and polygamy/polyandry. I know this simply because the oral traditions of Tonga and Vava'u have been passed to me. Records of these issues do not exist in the Tongan language at present. (Unless you assume everyone in the world has access to the Internet and Google translate.)Big UP!Lamanite Edited October 8, 2012 by Lamanite
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 Taking that at face value (which is very generous in this day and age), what is your remedy for this perceived issue?The answer is time. Add to that an understanding that none of this is required for conversion and the ability to continually increase one's own discipleship.My frustration is that some members say things like "there is no excuse for not knowing." And from my vantage point there are several good reasons for not knowing. And not knowing isn't necessarily a bad thing.Big UP!Lamanite
KevinG Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 So your recommendation to solve the missing bits about Joseph's polyandry and second anointing in Tongan oral tradition as you have heard it is?For bonus points can you insure your information on Joseph's polyandry and the second anointing is credible and accurate before sharing it with the Tongans?For extra credit can you present it in a way that is both salient to and not a distraction from the basics of the Gospel and celestial marraige?I eagerly await your solution.
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 P.S. I think Groberg might cuff me on the back of my head and tell me to do some service work or read my scriptures.
DavidB Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) Are you sure you want to venture onto footholds whose reliability you aren't sure of?{sigh} Very well.In that thread I pointed out several times, because several folks refused to/couldn't get the point, that a conviction for fraud can be used to invalidated the convict's entire testimony in future court proceedings . . . JSJr's "examination," therefore, if it were a preliminary proceeding and not a trial, could never be used as having established anything about his character one way or another. If it were a trial, on the other hand, we then need to look into whether he was actually convicted and what he was convicted of. Ignorant others ignore this not-so-fine distinction and its implications.That thread, therefore, has nothing to do with this one.JSJr was never on trial [at least openly] for bigamy/polygamy. Even if bigamy/polygamy were a felony offense, it's not in the nature of a fraud, at least not necessarily.This thread, therefore, has nothing to do with that one.I couldn't find the other thread to see if you were concerned only about future court procedures; which is why your "get over it" seemed so out of place. Edited October 8, 2012 by DavidB
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 So your recommendation to solve the missing bits about Joseph's polyandry and second anointing in Tongan oral tradition as you have heard it is?None. Most Tongan I know look down on me for researching things beyond the essential elements of the Gospel. In short, there is really no audience for such things.For bonus points can you insure your information on Joseph's polyandry and the second anointing is credible and accurate before sharing it with the Tongans?It's credible and accurate when evaluated on what type of source it is and how far removed it is from the event. (plus some other stuff)For extra credit can you present it in a way that is both salient to and not a distraction from the basics of the Gospel and celestial marraige?No. My study of Joseph is a personally enlightening experience in spite of and because of his human weaknesses. For some people this type of study is an extreme distraction and even a stumbling block. I never discuss this stuff with people that aren't already familiar with the subject and some of its basics.Again, I take issue with the fact that some people say it's somehow the fault of (Whoever) for not knowing this stuff. The reality is that this "stuff" is just not available to everyone everywhere. You would surely have to concede that point, No?Big UP!Lamanite
KevinG Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Available but not always worth the time to pursue. In that we are in agreement.I also take great comfort in the fact that Joseph, Abraham, Moses and a few others were human beings. There may be hope for me.
Calm Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Question. How many languages does the Maxwell Institute and F.A.I.R. translate their historical and/or apologetic publications into? LOL--- I thought so. Your bias is sickening.FAIR has about five different languages volunteers are translating material into, iirc. Slow going and if someone wants to volunteer to help for another language it would probably be accepted.I am wondering how often those in limited literary resource areas run into the more detailed anti and controversial stuff. If they have restricted Internet access for answers the same goes for criticisms as well.
KevinG Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 P.S. I think Groberg might cuff me on the back of my head and tell me to do some service work or read my scriptures.Hahahaha! You are probably right. Never mind don't ask him that.
USU78 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I couldn't find the other thread to see if you were concerned only about future court procedures; which is why your "get over it" seemed so out of place.No, I didn't limit it only to there: in public discourse it is also appropriate to use conviction of fraud or other "moral turpitude" offenses like theft and such to place the entire testimony of a person in doubt.I don't think you paid a bit of attention to what was being discussed in that thread. Unless it was to rehash the ignorance of those who failed to/refused to get the point.There was a fair bit of that.
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 Available but not always worth the time to pursue. In that we are in agreement.I also take great comfort in the fact that Joseph, Abraham, Moses and a few others were human beings. There may be hope for me.I feel the same about all of our scriptural heroes! For some of them the scriptural record is painfully descriptive when it comes to their shortcomings. Thankfully their redemption is always implied and in some marvelous cases explicit.Big Up!Lamanite
Calm Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I will also point out that Tongans are not a race that can benefit from Google translate. So you should be shocked that a lot of people have not heard of (fill in your ....blah blah blah.) I'm beginning to see where ideas like manifest destiny came from.... Just sweep aside the riff raff in the name of God!I think that much has to do with the assumption that if they have access to the criticisms, they will have access to the answers...iow those who need the info most because of encountering material have access to ways of finding answers.I don't know if this assumption is accurate, but it is understandable.In your experience (assuming since you are using them as an example, you have some experience first or secondhand through friends or family) do Tongans run into arguments dealing with Joseph's polygamy for example (and that is enough typing for now as my fingertip is starting to tingle with this blasted new neuropathy annoyance)?
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 FAIR has about five different languages volunteers are translating material into, iirc. Slow going and if someone wants to volunteer to help for another language it would probably be accepted.I am wondering how often those in limited literary resource areas run into the more detailed anti and controversial stuff. If they have restricted Internet access for answers the same goes for criticisms as well.I think FAIR's mission is timely and necessary. But I just don't think there is enough of a Tongan audience to justify the man hours that would be needed to translate stuff. Just give them a quad and a calling and they are good to go!Big UP!Lamanite
Calm Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 None. Most Tongan I know look down on me for researching things beyond the essential elements of the Gospel. In short, there is really no audience for such things.Lamanitethen why is it an issue? Or are you just protesting availability...using a different finger does not help so this is my very last post for a time...scold me if you see otherwise.
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 I think that much has to do with the assumption that if they have access to the criticisms, they will have access to the answers...iow those who need the info most because of encountering material have access to ways of finding answers.I don't know if this assumption is accurate, but it is understandable.In your experience (assuming since you are using them as an example, you have some experience first or secondhand through friends or family) do Tongans run into arguments dealing with Joseph's polygamy for example (and that is enough typing for now as my fingertip is starting to tingle with this blasted new neuropathy annoyance)?Ed Decker thought Tongans would be a good audience he came to my village (Haalauful'i-Vava'u Tonga) When he taught his version of what takes place in Temples and Polygamy he was beaten pretty badly and chased off the Island by both members and non-members. Interestingly, the non-members knew that what he was teaching was lies because they knew their what type of people and Christian's their countrymen were. They instinctively knew that their neghbors would not be a part of anything like what Decker saying. That was the end of anti-Mormon stuff in Vava'u from that era. Today it is a little bit more prevalent but the members don't really pay it much attention. The activity rate in Tonga though is waaaay down from what it used to be. But I don't think anyone can identify one single reason for that other than to say that it is just normal.That story about Ed is folklore and I have never validated it.Big UP!Lamanite
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 then why is it an issue? Or are you just protesting availability...using a different finger does not help so this is my verylast post for a time...scold me if you see otherwise.I'm arguing availability hoping to rebut the idea the everyone should and can know this stuff.Big UP!Lamanite
DavidB Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 No, I didn't limit it only to there: in public discourse it is also appropriate to use conviction of fraud or other "moral turpitude" offenses like theft and such to place the entire testimony of a person in doubt.I don't think you paid a bit of attention to what was being discussed in that thread. Unless it was to rehash the ignorance of those who failed to/refused to get the point.There was a fair bit of that.Ok, think I am almost to the same page as you, court conviction - if there was one - would serve as a basis to question the persons truthfulness in any forum.Thanks for the clarifications.
USU78 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Ok, think I am almost to the same page as you, court conviction - if there was one - would serve as a basis to question the persons truthfulness in any forum.Thanks for the clarifications.Sorry for grumpiness. Puter problems today.
thesometimesaint Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Your turn for a CFR on your quaint notions of the natives of Africa, Pacific Islands and Asia are illiterate when it comes to Western Culture and History (specifically anything that requires internet access).My son served in Zimbabwe Africa They speak English.
Lamanite Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 My son served in Zimbabwe Africa They speak English.Only logic is needed. Is everyone in the church an English speaker? No. Is everyone in the church literate in English? No. Does everyone in the church have Internet access? No. Assuming Compton, Bushman, G. Smith, Newell, and Hales at al. are the most competent and prolific writers on the subject, do you think their work, or their source information, is available to all the members of the Church? No.So using deductive reasoning.1. A non-English speaker (not to mention possible literacy issues) with no Internet access and no access to original source information or the latest scholarship on Polygamy probably won't be familiar with modern scholarship on this subject or with its associated sub topics. Big UP!LamaniteBig UP!Lamanite
cursor Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Lamanite:The internet just makes research easier. It doesn't prevent anyone with an interest from finding out. There is no excuse for not knowing.Sorry, but that is simply myopic and shortsighted. Beyond lack of internet access, what else might contribute to lack of factual/historical resource, or lack of ANY resource, or lack of local supportive human structure, or ...
cursor Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Perhaps we should stop preaching the gospel to all kindred tongues and people until we can provide them with high speed internet access first?Either that or have the missionaries carry copies of Fawn Brodie's book so all converts get "both sides of the story". Eh? That does not in any way [responsibly] address the fact that there are many LDS folk who are not well informed about the specifics of Mormon history.
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