Question About Rod Meldrum Theories

[DNA truthseeker]

Would you mind detailing (as carefully as possible, please) your proposed "heartland" layout of where the Book of Mormon events occurred? Hey, thanks.

Hello cursor, may I suggest you get a copy of my new picture book (available at Costco or Deseret Book) called Exploring the Book of Mormon in America's Heartland, with some 27 maps, or the DVD's and bone up on the research before further embarrassing yourself. Like I said before, I knew you knew practically nothing about our research or you wouldn't have written the things you have and now you've openly admitted to it. I would advise you to watch the FREE VIDEO GALLERY or contact me directly and I will provide a loaner set for your use.

[DNA truthseeker]

I have shown you how you are careless. You only accept the evidence you want to, while discarding the rest. But my statements have been ignored.

Based on your previous attacks against me, I might well make the same claims about you.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Ares

[DNA truthseeker]

Even if you consider ONLY what is written in the Book regarding relationships between lands and cities, about climate and weather ... there is no way in heaven (or hell) that the "heartland" concept stands.

Everything you have brought up has been addressed now for over three years. Don't you feel its time to get informed before making further false claims?

[DNA truthseeker]

Honestly? Read the quotes from Meldrum to me I quote in my by lines below and ask yourself if you share the same hostility as he does. You have yet, since you began posting on this forum, correctly represented those you disagree with on a PERIPHERAL issue. You try to pin this down on us, when you are doing that exact thing. You believe Joseph Smith did not know what he was talking about when he placed The Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. Do you see a double standard?

Yes, I see a double standard here. First you are misleading people into believing that you have evidende that Joseph Smith ever made the claim that the Book of Mormon happened in Mesoamerica. Either provide the historical documentation I requested to prove your position or you should retract your statement. You have hounded and stalked me for over four years, posting your attacks online anywhere you thought you could do some damage. You've posted long negative articles on every Amazon page with my material or any Heartlanders material on them. I have never done the same. I have not published our emails online nor have I posted any negative reviews of your DNA video or book. You have been relentless in your obvious hatred and animosity toward me and I finally have grown tired of it, feeling justified that I have turned the other cheek at least 70x7 in the case of all the attacks by Mesoamerica theory propagandists. So I am going to try to correct your falsehoods but do it in as kind a manner as I know how because you cannot get the clue otherwise it would appear. Your animosity is clearly evident in your attacks against me. I have not responded in kind. The emails we have had have been private. You must decide if you want to make them public. But be warned that I may put up online some of your emails to me and your refusal to even attempt to reconsile with me when I invited you and your wife over for a BBQ so we could talk this out. You don't seem to want reconsiliation, you want to attack me and that has become obvious and clear. So just be aware that I have many, many fellow Heartlanders who help me to know what you are saying and doing. I do not wish to engage you as I have better things to do with my life than attack others, so this is about all I am going to say. The research stands on its own and it moving forward exponentially. People are seeing through your smokescreen.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Ares

[DNA truthseeker]

I'm being pretty straight forward because you are having a hard time seeing the hypocrisy. Do you believe the Prophet Brigham Young when he said

"I look forward to the time when the settlements of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will extend right through to the City of Old Mexico, and from thence on through Central America to the land where the Nephites flourished in the golden era of their history, and this great backbone of the American Continent be filled, north and south with the cities and temples of the people of God."

(letter to William C. Staines, January 11, 1876)

Or John Taylor:

"For this reason we copy the foregoing eulogy on General Joseph Smith, one of the greatest men that ever lived on the earth; emphatically proved so, by being inspired by God to bring forth the Book of Mormon, which gives the true history of the natives of this continent; their ancient glory and cities:-which cities have been discovered by Mr. Stevens [stephens] in Central America, exactly were the Book of Mormon left them"

to name a few? Are you saying that they did not know what they were talking about? Remember, these are ordained Prophets of God.

Please provide for us the historical documentation as to where their claim to have received revelation for the Church on this matter may be found, because, you see, Joseph Smith statements to the contrary are, according to him, revelatory in nature so the only way that a previous revelation can be overturned is with a new revelation. Am I right here? I mean, if these men were simply stating their considered opinion, that wouldn't negate Joseph Smith's revelations would they? Therefore for John Taylor or Brigham Young to overturn Joseph's written and revelatory statements, you would surely expect that these statements would be backed up by a direct claim to revelation, would you not? So, would you kindly provide for all of us the clear and written statements by John Taylor and Brigham Young that their claims regarding Mesoamerica are the result of revelation from God for His Church.

If you cannot, then you must admit that these good men of God might have simply been expressing their own opinion which I know that you and your friends at FAIR and FARMS are well known to accept on other subjects. Also, if their statements were revelation, then why are the Times and Seasons articles, which were based on Stephen's book, wrong about such things as Palenque being Zarahemla and such things, as has been refuted by main stream archaeology and even your fellow Mesoamerican theorists for we now know that Palenque wasn't built until long after Book of Mormon time frames, but neither John Taylor nor Brigham Young knew that at the time of the Times and Seasons articles nor when they made these statements. At some point you are going to have to either prove that Joseph Smith did reject his earlier revelations in order to embrace the "truths" found in Stephens travel book, or your going to have to show that later prophets received revelations that superseded Joseph Smith's earlier revelations, or you're going to have to finally admit to everyone you've been misleading over the past four years that you have nothing of the sort and you've been deceiving them all along. Provide the documentation or cease these attacks. We are all anxiously awaiting.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Ares

[DNA truthseeker]

At the time the Book of Mormon was published, Joseph knew the same amount of geography as his Palmyra neighbor did. We have to remember Joseph did not have much of an education when he was translating. I am glad you have had enough, your drivel was complimenting my patience.

I do not take ANACO comments as anything close to serious. He/She obviously is closed minded, refuses to have a respectable dialogue, and lastly whose knowledge of the Book of Mormon and geography is at a high school level. I say high school because he/she is locked onto the heartland theory by emotion which is usually a marker of following someone blindly and lacks the discipline to research for him/herself.

For example Anaco writes the following paragraph;

Anaco writes this as a defense to snow mentioned in the BofM thereby allegedly supporting a Heartland model. The problem Anaco did not look deeper into the verse and realizes it is the only time in the entire Book of Mormon that snow is mentioned and it is mentioned before Nephi has even built the boat, they were still in the Old World.

Come now Anijen, put your fangs back in and stop your pathetic name calling. Drivel?, don't take seriously?, closed minded?, refuses respectable dialogue?, high school level knowledge?, emotional?, blind follower?, lacks discipline?... need I say more? Yet I have not accused you of such things in my correcting your utter lack of knowledge of the Heartland Model you are attacking, so how about some of that good ol' Mesoamerican Christ-like attitude they are so famous for and stop the personal attacks. You continue to be an embarrassement to the rest of us who call ourselves "latter-day Saints."

[Bart Burk]

Come now Anijen, put your fangs back in and stop your pathetic name calling. Drivel?, don't take seriously?, closed minded?, refuses respectable dialogue?, high school level knowledge?, emotional?, blind follower?, lacks discipline?... need I say more? Yet I have not accused you of such things in my correcting your utter lack of knowledge of the Heartland Model you are attacking, so how about some of that good ol' Mesoamerican Christ-like attitude they are so famous for and stop the personal attacks. You continue to be an embarrassement to the rest of us who call ourselves "latter-day Saints."

I generally agree with the Heartland Model as others have proposed it. The one thing I can't overcome with your model is I've heard that you believe the River Sidon is the Mississippi River. The other New York models I have seen make the river Buffalo Creek or some other New York river that flows from south to north. How can the River Sidon be the Mississippi River since it flows from north to south? I agree that Mesoamerican theories don't make much sense.

[thesometimesaint]

Bart Burk:

The Mississippi River starts by going north. but quickly turns south. I still don't agree with the Heartland Model.

[DNA truthseeker]

I generally agree with the Heartland Model as others have proposed it. The one thing I can't overcome with your model is I've heard that you believe the River Sidon is the Mississippi River. The other New York models I have seen make the river Buffalo Creek or some other New York river that flows from south to north. How can the River Sidon be the Mississippi River since it flows from north to south? I agree that Mesoamerican theories don't make much sense.

Please...read the article and ask yourself if a smaller river that could be crossed nearly anywhere, makes any sense when the Nephites waited in a valley for the Lamanite armies to come to the river crossing. How would the Nephites know where the Lamanites were going to cross unless there were only specific places where is could be crossed? It must have been a large river with only limited crossings (either two or three at the most are mentioned in the text). The link for the article, which has been on our website for nearly two years now, is The Mississippi; Could it have been River Sidon?

Edited September 10, 2012 by DNA truthseeker

[DNA truthseeker]

Bart Burk:

The Mississippi River starts by going north. but quickly turns south. I still don't agree with the Heartland Model.

Please provide the passage in the text of the Book of Mormon that demonstrates that the river flowed north. Just one single, solitary direct reference will suffice. I'm not talking about extrapolating the information or deriving it from where other cities are, just a plain and simple reference that it flowed north. There is no such passage. Please read the article... The Mississippi; Could it have been River Sidon?

[thesometimesaint]

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=1&num=1&id=622

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/insights/?vol=22&num=11&id=302

[DNA truthseeker]

http://maxwellinstit...=1&num=1&id=622

http://maxwellinstit...2&num=11&id=302

I knew you would not be providing any textual support for the claim. Thanks for demonstrating it.

[thesometimesaint]

The Book of Mormon doesn't claim any location.

[Bart Burk]

Please...read the article and ask yourself if a smaller river that could be crossed nearly anywhere, makes any sense when the Nephites waited in a valley for the Lamanite armies to come to the river crossing. How would the Nephites know where the Lamanites were going to cross unless there were only specific places where is could be crossed? It must have been a large river with only limited crossings (either two or three at the most are mentioned in the text). The link for the article, which has been on our website for nearly two years now, is The Mississippi; Could it have been River Sidon?

Thank you! That is very interesting. I've already purchased one of your books which has convinced me that the Promised Land according to the Book of Mormon had to be the United States of America.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Calm]

Have you not read the FAIR "reviews" or even in this very thread where some have resorted to declaring my offering educational materials as "priestcraft."

I don't remember ever hearing another FAIR member state you didn't believe in the gospel or weren't committed to it even if some have condemned the forms your promotion of a particular Book of Mormon geography paradigm takes. I am also not suggesting that some of the things said by FAIR members, including myself in this thread, have not been harsh.

My comment was specifically about addressing accusations against faithfulness. Faithfulness as in believing in and trying to live the gospel and obey the commandments and follow the prophets. Priestcraft as currently being used by certain FAIR members in regards to your work refers to something very different.

Edited September 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[zerinus]

Even if you consider ONLY what is written in the Book regarding relationships between lands and cities, about climate and weather ... there is no way in heaven (or hell) that the "heartland" concept stands.

LOL.

Clearly you're not able to offer any credible alternative, while excusing the opinions of professionals who have invested their lives toward very reasonable solutions.

Offer some scheme that makes sense ... please.

I don't think that ANACO is necessarily a "heartlander". I think that he just does not find the Mesoamerica/LGT model sufficiently convincing; and neither do I, for that matter. I can't say I am familiar with the heartland model, but I am sceptical about that too. I think both models have elements of truth in them, and elements of error. The truth is likely to be a mixture of the two. It is more likely that the initial landing took place in Mesoamerica, and later on the population expanded into the north. And the Maya/"others" theory is baloney.

Edited September 10, 2012 by zerinus

[Bart Burk]

For all of those using climate as a reason to disparage the Heartland model, it's irrelevant. There is almost nothing written in the Book of Mormon regarding climate. I can only find one verse that mentions "heat" with regards to weather. There are only two verses in the Book of Mormon that I can find that talk about rain and that is in relationship to droughts. After going through this summer's drought in the Midwest, that could easily apply to a Heartland model. Weather is just not something the Book of Mormon goes into in great detail. Even the use of the word "cement" in the Book of Mormon only occurs in a few verses in the same chapter of Helaman. We simply don't have any idea what the word "cement" might mean -- in the Book of Mormon it discusses it in line with the lack of trees. If I understand it properly a lot of trees would be necessary to make the fire for what is modern day cement. If there weren't any trees it would be difficult to make what we commonly think of as cement. So it had to mean something different than our common understanding.

[zerinus]

Joseph didn't have a vision and wake up with his memory banks fully loaded with nothing else to learn.

At the time the Book of Mormon was published, Joseph knew the same amount of geography as his Palmyra neighbor did. We have to remember Joseph did not have much of an education when he was translating.

Available information about the early life of Joseph Smith suggests that he was tutored by angels (extensively) for four years prior to obtaining the plates, during which he was given extensive information about the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations, and shown visions of their societies, customs, manner of dress etc., which he was able to describe to members of his family in great detail. It is highly likely that he had been shown visions of their original landing sites, as well as subsequent geographical developments. It is absurd to claim that he was ignorant of BOM geography.

[Anijen]

Might I humbly suggest that those reading this blog take the time to actually watch for themselves my presentations and see if you agree with Anijen's personal assesment of my presentation is like?

I agree, go to a heartland presentation ask some hard questions and then watch Brother Mark Wrights presentation and weight and measure them and choose for yourself.

Anijen is offering nothing more than his opinion about my supposed "elitist attitude" and "ethnocentric personality."

Again I agree. It is my opinion and the internet world is welcome to it. And as long as you peddle your false artifacts and manipulate experts in the archaeological field and to cherry pick your ideas and not mention others I will continue to be a thorn in your side.

Or that I am "condescending" or "incredibly contentious" in when being questioned, all of which is false and meant only again to dissuade folks from learning the truth about the research.

Not false, you are arrogant and condescending and anyone who disagrees with you, you will label an apostate (Your own website confirms this).

So rather than taking Anijen's opinion, watch the video's themselves and compare them to Mark Wright and determine the facts in the case for yourself. Or better yet, come to an upcoming presentation or conference and see for yourself.

I agree

Another "feeling" Anijen had was that I had "ringers" in the audience that "jeered" others? Really? You can bet that he/she had precisely NO evidence to support that bogus claim.

And when I posted that comment I clarified it was my opinion and I am not hiding that. My evidence is go and question Brother Meldrum yourself and see what happens and then choose and decide. FYI I am a he.

"priestcraft" supposition without evidence.

Then explain why you are not allowed in a church building to do your presentation. I posit that the reason is if your not selling a time share your peddling your DVDs. I have no problem with being in business but you seem to cross the line between money making and using fake artifacts, manipulating real experts for you to come across as truthful.

Really? You have family members who swear I will become the next General Authority?

Yes, when I attended your presentation I went with my aunt and uncle and my aunt was so taken by it she bought and she had you autograph the DVD cover for her. She remarked that he [Meldrum] should be a General Authority like brother Lund [of Work and the Glory fame]. Edited September 10, 2012 by Anijen

[zerinus]

ANACO has left the building.

That is a shame, because he was the only talking sense here.

[Anijen]

Shall we start here?

Yes lets do.

Dr. Roger Kennedy, former director of the Smithsonian's American History Museum, as published in his book, Hidden Cities - The Discovery and Loss of Ancient North American Civilization - Free Press, 1994 wrote, "Few realize that some of the oldest, largest, and most complex structures of ancient archaeology were built of earth, clay and stone right here in America, oin the Ohio and Mississippi valleys. From 6,000 years ago until quite recently, North America was home to some of the most highly advanced and well organized civilizations in the world - complete with cities, roads and commerce." With over 200,000 earthen walls, embankments, fortifications, temple mounds, burial mounds etc. scattered throughout the Ohio and Mississippi river valley's, with non-LDS scholars claiming the overall work accomplished by the Hopewell to be possibly even greater than that of the pyramids of Egypt or the Great Wall of China (Dr. Bradley Leper - Head Archaeologist of Ohio) and with the incredibly advanced knowledge of astronomical alignments, high mathematics and precision geometric complexes, it is hard to imagine this all being accomplished by a few small clans of hunter gatherers. Has there ever been similar massive works accomplished by hunter gatherers in human history?

This is all true, but you try to inflate this into something it isn't. "that some of the oldest, largest" does not mean the oldest and largest and the population for these mounds are no where near the population levels needed. Cahokia only reached approximately 50K people and that post dates the Book of Mormon.

One may ask if there has ever been found and verified any Hebrew or Egyptian language evidence anywhere in Mesoamerica? The Mayan language has no relation to either of the two languages mentioned in the Book of Mormon record. Why not? Yes, the Maya had a written language, it just doesn't happen to be any language mentioned by the Book of Mormon.

And what is the evidence for it in the heartland? Well none since there is no written language for it. Mesoamerica the only place that had a written language during the time of the Book of Mormon.

edited to add; I know Dr. Leper (as you put it; "Dr. Bradley Leper - Head Archaeologist of Ohio") I say lets get together the three of us and record a video of what he thinks of your heartland theory and how you used him.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Anijen

[Bart Burk]

Yes lets do.

This is all true, but you try to inflate this into something it isn't. "that some of the oldest, largest" does not mean the oldest and largest and the population for these mounds are no where near the population levels needed. Cahokia only reached approximately 50K people and that post dates the Book of Mormon.

And what is the evidence for it in the heartland? Well none since there is no written language for it. Mesoamerica the only place that had a written language during the time of the Book of Mormon.

Mesoamerica is the only place that we know had a written language during the time of the Book of Mormon.

[Calm]

Available information about the early life of Joseph Smith suggests that he was tutored by angels (extensively) for four years prior to obtaining the plates, during which he was given extensive information about the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations, and shown visions of their societies, customs, manner of dress etc., which he was able to describe to members of his family in great detail. It is highly likely that he had been shown visions of their original landing sites, as well as subsequent geographical developments. It is absurd to claim that he was ignorant of BOM geography.

So you think that when shown these sites, that there was included a global map or something along those lines so that not only did he know what things looked like, but he understood perfectly where everything was located in relation to each other.

People can watch movies detailing the life of faraway places all the time and still not be able to locate those places on a map without a further reference. I've known people who have flown to places and still get lost trying to find them on maps or don't understand the exact relationship between one place and another.

Edited September 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[Anijen]

OK, I'll bite. How about providing us all with just one (1) non-LDS scientific verification of Hebrew or Egyptian language use during Book of Mormon Nephite time frames

I can not and never claimed I could. However since you issued the challenge then it is only fair that you do so too for a heartland setting.

You can read all about the non-LDS scientific verification of Hebrew in the Heartland of America by reading the article Hebrew Written Language CONFIRMED in Hopewell Mound in Tennessee!

Exodus 20:16. This is vintage Meldrum, using fake artifacts and real experts he has manipulated to show absolutely the opposite of what he claims. And your only proof is the very edited The Lost Citizens of North America as proof for a "Hebrew written Language CONFIRMED in Hopewell in Tennessee" This is the video where your own experts cited took out a page advertisement against the video and they feel you are misrepresenting them. In fact you duped them into thinking one thing while using them to support what they themselves do not believe to be true. And don't get me started on the Batcreek Stone. I have held it in my hands have spoken with both the Smithsonian curator and the the experts at Tennessee and they agree to it being a fake. When it was displayed they even have a sign saying as much.

What about all the 36 promises that identify the lands of the Book of Mormon being in the latter days a new Gentile nation above all other nations

This just shows your ignorance to scripture or blindness to see how those verses can be interpreted. There are many Lands of Promise and many Choice Lands that are not the United States.

Lets see if you can offer twice as many evidences for Guatemala being that nation than the United States of America can in our Heartland Model.

Oh please, I do not feel that all those verses represent only the land of the United States, which has had a King and a Queen over it and has been defeated etc.

watch the Prophecies and Promises sections on the VIDEO GALLERY or read the FREE excerpts of the book Prophecies and Promises.

Yes watch this and see the experts he uses in dismiss everything he tried to use to support the Book of Mormon in the heartland. See the fake artifacts in the videos he uses to try to strengthen his theory.

Don't Mesoamerican scholars reject any proposed setting other than Mesoamerica?

I do not and do not know of others that do. My expertise is on the Hopewell, Adena, and Clovis periods of America. I accept a Mesoamerican setting because frankly it fits better. All the others I have read have spoken about northern migration. I would accept a hemispheric model before yours.

Are we "Heartlanders" really so different?

No I welcome and enjoy discussing all theories, but in a respectful manner and without being labeled weak in my faith or an apostate. I also will point out that using fraudulent artifacts to bolster your theory is not scientific but just plain deceiving.

If so I don't see it.

Or you refuse to see it.

Yes, of course we cite "promised land" quotes because they are prophetic and they support our position.

At the same time leaving out the ones that support a Mesoamerican setting.

[Bart Burk]

And what is the evidence for it in the heartland? Well none since there is no written language for it. Mesoamerica the only place that had a written language during the time of the Book of Mormon.

Mesoamerica is the only place we know there was a written language. I have studied a lot of non-Mormon writings on the Adena and the Hopewell. What I took away from reading these materials is that what we know about the Adena and the Hopewell is extremely limited. There is a lot of guessing going on with regards to the evidence available. I also have read they can translate Mesoamerican materials, and at least the small amount of what I have read of these translations does not seem to line up with anything we know from the Book of Mormon.