ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Are you really claiming that BOM geography is not a peripheral aspect of the Gospel!?!?! I would go out on a limb and say that if you ask any GA, or even your local nursery leader what is the central point of the Gospel that they would say things like the atonement, Jesus Christ, faith, the restoration, service, missionary work, love, charity, repentance, etc.... and that BOM geography would not even be mentioned. However, this may explain your zeal in the matter. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your priorities if this is the case.You're claiming it is and claiming God wouldn't reveal geographical information to the Prophets of God - "especially geography!"A Land of Promise is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. A Mighty Nation is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The New Jerusalem is mentioned in the Book of Mormon.This is a prophetic timeline of a geographical location. Why is it in there? Yet you claim Joseph Smith would not know of its location. "especially geography"
ERayR Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 I'm a Heartland apologist because I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about? ha ha ha!I too have studied up on your stuff. It's claimed Joseph Smith learned about the geography from the Book of Mormon from a travel book:"Enthusiastic comments published at Nauvoo showed that the Church's leaders, including Joseph Smith, were immensely stimulated by the new information. Within a few weeks of the first notice, they announced they had just discovered, by reading Stephens's book, that the Nephites' prime homeland must have been in Central," http://maxwellinstit...d=41&chapid=196Yet one can also read:[Joseph Smith] also declared that "the best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask it from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching" (TPJS, p. 191).http://maxwellinstit...d=51&chapid=454You are very careless with your accuracy and misrepresentation of the evidence and the statements made by Meso-American adherents. This problem makes it hard to take you seriously. 1
livy111us Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 I'm a Heartland apologist because I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about? ha ha ha!I too have studied up on your stuff. It's claimed Joseph Smith learned about the geography from the Book of Mormon from a travel book:"Enthusiastic comments published at Nauvoo showed that the Church's leaders, including Joseph Smith, were immensely stimulated by the new information. Within a few weeks of the first notice, they announced they had just discovered, by reading Stephens's book, that the Nephites' prime homeland must have been in Central," http://maxwellinstit...d=41&chapid=196Yet one can also read:[Joseph Smith] also declared that "the best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask it from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching" (TPJS, p. 191).http://maxwellinstit...d=51&chapid=454How did you get this:"I'm a Heartland apologist because I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about? ha ha ha!"From this:"You only accept the statements from Joseph Smith which agree with you while ignoring the rest that do not. You dismiss the Prophet when he says something that is inconvenient for you by attacking what you believe to be the source of the statements. Instead of looking at all of the evidence, as any honest man should do, you pick and choose what statements from the Prophet you choose to believe."??????Again, I think I found part of the problem with your understanding obvious evidence 1
cursor Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 I'm a Heartland apologist because I believe the Prophet Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about ...Would you mind detailing (as carefully as possible, please) your proposed "heartland" layout of where the Book of Mormon events occurred? Hey, thanks.
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 You are very careless with your accuracy and misrepresentation of the evidence and the statements made by Meso-American adherents. This problem makes it hard to take you seriously.So now it gets down to me being careless. How is it that I'm careless on a website like this? I provided links to the quotes I used. Do I need to quote the articles in their entirety to satisfy you?
livy111us Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 You're claiming it is and claiming God wouldn't reveal geographical information to the Prophets of God - "especially geography!"A Land of Promise is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. A Mighty Nation is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The New Jerusalem is mentioned in the Book of Mormon.This is a prophetic timeline of a geographical location. Why is it in there? Yet you claim Joseph Smith would not know of its location. "especially geography"Since you do not know exactly what I believe about BOM geography, I find it funny that you are setting up straw men only to knock 'em down. You can do that all day, but you are not making any progress.Since no one claimed that God "wouldn't" reveal BOM geography, you are fighting a lone battle. I also didn't claim that I'm an alien with ten eyes. Do you want to prove that wrong as well?
livy111us Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 So now it gets down to me being careless. How is it that I'm careless on a website like this? I provided links to the quotes I used. Do I need to quote the articles in their entirety to satisfy you?I have shown you how you are careless. You only accept the evidence you want to, while discarding the rest. But my statements have been ignored.
ERayR Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) So now it gets down to me being careless. How is it that I'm careless on a website like this? I provided links to the quotes I used. Do I need to quote the articles in their entirety to satisfy you?You also seem to have a problem reading for comprehension. i said you do not accurately portray what Meso-American adherents are saying.Go ahead though I think I shall not waste any more effort responding to your posts. Edited September 9, 2012 by ERayR
livy111us Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Can you explain why you think BOM geography is central to the Gospel?
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Would you mind detailing (as carefully as possible, please) your proposed "heartland" layout of where the Book of Mormon events occurred? Hey, thanks.Oh I get it. If I don't have a "carefully detailed" geography theory while you do, then you win the argument. - that's flawed logic. And you admit, if it didn't happen in Mesoamerica, then it happened in North America.What's flawed is the Mesoamerica Theory - from Joseph Smith not knowing what he was talking about to Nephites living among the Maya-or "others" - for which you have to warp the text of the Book of Mormon.Why don't you address the flaws of your own 500 x 200 mile theory? It's never been proven true.
cursor Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Even if you consider ONLY what is written in the Book regarding relationships between lands and cities, about climate and weather ... there is no way in heaven (or hell) that the "heartland" concept stands.
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Can you explain why you think BOM geography is central to the Gospel?Are these your standard FAIRLDS talking points? Are you [edit]? I sent a message to FAIRLDS about these issues some time back, and in reply I received emails from a Tyler Livingston.His were not the only ones that flooded my inbox.The Land of Promise is mentioned in the 2nd chapter of the Book of Mormon. You think it was in Mesoamerica among the Maya- i.e. Lehi was delivered from Jerusalem and led to the Land of Promise to live among savages.Laughable.
cursor Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Oh I get it. If I don't have a "carefully detailed" geography theory while you do, then you win the argument. - that's flawed logic. And you admit, if it didn't happen in Mesoamerica, then it happened in North America.LOL.Clearly you're not able to offer any credible alternative, while excusing the opinions of professionals who have invested their lives toward very reasonable solutions.Offer some scheme that makes sense ... please.
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Even if you consider ONLY what is written in the Book regarding relationships between lands and cities, about climate and weather ... there is no way in heaven (or hell) that the "heartland" concept stands.Why? Your own father in his writings changed his ideas about the climate and weather in Mesoamerica. To quote:I had supposed that the Nephite new year's day referred to in Alma 51:37 and 52:1, when captain Teancum killed king Amalickiah and so turned back the Lamanite military offensive that had reached as far as the land of Bountiful, fell near the winter solstice in December.Further investigation has persuaded me, however, that I generalized too much. In fact, the length and timing of the "dry season" and "wet season" vary substantially from region to region, depending upon specific local meteorological and topographic conditions. Generalizing for the entire area can introduce errors when comparison is made with Book of Mormon events. http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=2&num=2&id=42I've read his stuff.
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 LOL.Clearly you're not able to offer any credible alternative, while excusing the opinions of professionals who have invested their lives toward very reasonable solutions.Offer some scheme that makes sense ... please.That's odd you would bring that up - that LDS Members would invest their entire lives trying to prove Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about. Quite strange in fact.
livy111us Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Are these your standard FAIRLDS talking points? Are you Tyler Livingston? I sent a message to FAIRLDS about these issues some time back, and in reply I received emails from a Tyler Livingston.His were not the only ones that flooded my inbox.The Land of Promise is mentioned in the 2nd chapter of the Book of Mormon. You think it was in Mesoamerica among the Maya- i.e. Lehi was delivered from Jerusalem and led to the Land of Promise to live among savages.Laughable.Actually, my question was only for you to explain why you believe BOM geography to be central in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not really a talking point, only a question and a valid one at that. You were mocking us for saying it was an appendage, so I'm curious how you justify that claim.*Again* you are telling me what I believe without even giving the effort to ask what my beliefs are to begin with. Being a former missionary, that tactic was common among those who were hostile to me and my faith. Just sayin'.
livy111us Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 That's odd you would bring that up - that LDS Members would invest their entire lives trying to prove Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about. Quite strange in fact.Honestly? Read the quotes from Meldrum to me I quote in my by lines below and ask yourself if you share the same hostility as he does. You have yet, since you began posting on this forum, correctly represented those you disagree with on a PERIPHERAL issue. You try to pin this down on us, when you are doing that exact thing. You believe Joseph Smith did not know what he was talking about when he placed The Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. Do you see a double standard?
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Actually, my question was only for you to explain why you believe BOM geography to be central in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not really a talking point, only a question and a valid one at that. You were mocking us for saying it was an appendage, so I'm curious how you justify that claim.*Again* you are telling me what I believe without even giving the effort to ask what my beliefs are to begin with. Being a former missionary, that tactic was common among those who were hostile to me and my faith. Just sayin'.You're twisting the argument. You're a proponet of the Prophet's of God not knowing what they're talking about. Why? because your Mesoamerica Theory contradicts statements made by the Prophet. It's a false line of reasoning based on an unproven theory. So to bolster your unproven theory, you have to attack the Prophet's statements and claim geography isn't important as a reason why his statements are wrong.
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Honestly? Read the quotes from Meldrum to me I quote in my by lines below and ask yourself if you share the same hostility as he does. You have yet, since you began posting on this forum, correctly represented those you disagree with on a PERIPHERAL issue. You try to pin this down on us, when you are doing that exact thing. You believe Joseph Smith did not know what he was talking about when he placed The Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. Do you see a double standard?Joseph Smith never placed the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. The Times and Seasons wrote of Stephen's book. Just like the Ensign Magazine allowed Dr. Sorenson to mention his theory.But neither were endorsements by the Church - just articles of interest.
ERayR Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 You're twisting the argument. You're a proponet of the Prophet's of God not knowing what they're talking about. Why? because your Mesoamerica Theory contradicts statements made by the Prophet. It's a false line of reasoning based on an unproven theory. So to bolster your unproven theory, you have to attack the Prophet's statements and claim geography isn't important as a reason why his statements are wrong.Just to clear the air are you in any way getting a cut of this:http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org/products.php
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) “..many scholars currently see northern Central America and southern Mexico (Mesoamerica) as the most likely location of Book of Mormon lands. However, such views are private and do not represent an official position of the Church.” http://maxwellinstit...d=51&chapid=371“Enthusiastic comments published at Nauvoo showed that the Church's leaders, including Joseph Smith, were immensely stimulated by the new information. Within a few weeks of the first notice, they announced they had just discovered, by reading Stephens's book, that the Nephites' prime homeland must have been in Central … America.” http://maxwellinstit...d=41&chapid=196Notice the contradiction? It's not endorsed by the Church, but then again it was! Edited September 9, 2012 by ANACO
livy111us Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 You're twisting the argument. You're a proponet of the Prophet's of God not knowing what they're talking about. Why? because your Mesoamerica Theory contradicts statements made by the Prophet. It's a false line of reasoning based on an unproven theory. So to bolster your unproven theory, you have to attack the Prophet's statements and claim geography isn't important as a reason why his statements are wrong.I'm being pretty straight forward because you are having a hard time seeing the hypocrisy. Do you believe the Prophet Brigham Young when he said "I look forward to the time when the settlements of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will extend right through to the City of Old Mexico, and from thence on through Central America to the land where the Nephites flourished in the golden era of their history, and this great backbone of the American Continent be filled, north and south with the cities and temples of the people of God."(letter to William C. Staines, January 11, 1876)Or John Taylor:"For this reason we copy the foregoing eulogy on General Joseph Smith, one of the greatest men that ever lived on the earth; emphatically proved so, by being inspired by God to bring forth the Book of Mormon, which gives the true history of the natives of this continent; their ancient glory and cities:-which cities have been discovered by Mr. Stevens [stephens] in Central America, exactly were the Book of Mormon left them"to name a few? Are you saying that they did not know what they were talking about? Remember, these are ordained Prophets of God. 1
ERayR Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) “..many scholars currently see northern Central America and southern Mexico (Mesoamerica) as the most likely location of Book of Mormon lands. However, such views are private and do not represent an official position of the Church.” http://maxwellinstit...d=51&chapid=371“Enthusiastic comments published at Nauvoo showed that the Church's leaders, including Joseph Smith, were immensely stimulated by the new information. Within a few weeks of the first notice, they announced they had just discovered, by reading Stephens's book, that the Nephites' prime homeland must have been in Central … America.” http://maxwellinstit...d=41&chapid=196Notice the contradiction? It's not endorsed by the Church, but then again it was!Do you not see the irony that your own position is also among those that is "not endorsed by the Church"? Edited September 9, 2012 by ERayR
livy111us Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Joseph Smith never placed the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. The Times and Seasons wrote of Stephen's book. Just like the Ensign Magazine allowed Dr. Sorenson to mention his theory.But neither were endorsements by the Church - just articles of interest.Really? This shows either your ignorance, or willingness to ignore facts.For starters, Joseph Smiths letter to John Bernhisel which he wrote thanking him for Stephens and Catherwoods book on Mesoamerica. he said that the contents of that book "corresponds with & supports the testimony of the Book of Mormon." He continues by saying "I have read the volumes with the greatest interest & pleasure & must say that of all histories that have been written pertaining to the antiquities of this country it is the most correct luminous & comprihensive." Joseph Smith, "Church History," Times and Seasons 3 no. 9 (1March 1842), 707Seems pretty obvious to me that he wasn't speaking of the Great Lakes region. 1
ANACO Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Just to clear the air are you in any way getting a cut of this:http://www.bookofmor...rg/products.phpNO! You're implication is low. I'm not a member of any bom geography organization! How about you? Do you get a cut of the book sales at FAIRLDS? Are you given the podium at its conferences to hock your books? How about $$ from the yet to be published Mormon Codex? Or are you a part of MormonInterpretor.com asking for donations? Were you a paid member of FARMS before getting fired by email?I just think it's ridiculous that a BoM Geo. Theory has to claim Joseph Smith didn't know what he was talking about to have to believe in it. You've all proven my point.
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