Vance Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) In this,http://www.mormondia...-pre-existence/thread, the Biblical support for the pre-existence was explored. However, some critics seem to think that the support for the pre-existence does not really exist. So, I thought it might be interesting to explore (if there is such) any claimed Biblical teaching that is explicitly against the pre-existence.The only one I have come across before is the erroneous use of 1 Cor 15:46-48.So, what say you critics?Edited to add,Ok, ok, in the absence of verses "explicitly" teaching against the pre-existence, are there any that have indications, or presumptions against it? Edited August 30, 2012 by Vance
thesometimesaint Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 I don't know of any verse in the bible that explicitly teach against it, but I'm no Biblical scholar.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 I am not aware of any teaching that is explicit against the idea. When I served a mission (It was not really until this board) that any EV really objected to the idea once I threw a few versus in their face. Lol.Ok they still rejected the idea. Most responses were "So you get that idea from one verse."
KevinG Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Most responses were "So you get that idea from one verse.""No we get the idea from Latter-day Revelation. Haven't you been listening."
shalamabobbi Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 I predict the EV response will be "The bible does not say anything against flying spaghetti monsters either. Do you believe in them?"And in this case I'd have to award them the point..
KevinG Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 I predict the EV response will be "The bible does not say anything against flying spaghetti monsters either. Do you believe in them?"And in this case I'd have to award them the point..You Boyardeeans believe in a false flying spaghetti monster that has nothing to do with the real flying spaghetti monster found in Pastafarianism. 2
Glenn101 Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 I predict the EV response will be "The bible does not say anything against flying spaghetti monsters either. Do you believe in them?"And in this case I'd have to award them the point..Why award them a point when there are several scriptures that can plausibly be interpreted as pertaining to the pre-existence of spirits? We have already been presented with the Jeremiah and Job scriptures. Add to that the case of the man born blind in John chapter nine when the disciples asked Jesus who had sinned, the blind man or his parents that he had been born blind.The inference there is that there must have been a time previous to being placed in the womb that the man had the ability to sin. Unless one were to subscribe to thetheory that a fetus is capable of sinning. Of course I would ask for scripture to support such a conclusion.Glenn
shalamabobbi Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Why award them a point when there are several scriptures that can plausibly be interpreted as pertaining to the pre-existence of spirits? We have already been presented with the Jeremiah and Job scriptures. Add to that the case of the man born blind in John chapter nine when the disciples asked Jesus who had sinned, the blind man or his parents that he had been born blind.The inference there is that there must have been a time previous to being placed in the womb that the man had the ability to sin. Unless one were to subscribe to thetheory that a fetus is capable of sinning. Of course I would ask for scripture to support such a conclusion.GlennCertainly. The argument in reverse however is a flawed argument. Simply because the bible doesn't contain anything specifically against the doctrine of a pre-mortal existence doesn't prove that it supports a pre-mortal existence. I agree with what exists in the bible as support for a pre-mortal existence. Hope this helps.
Glenn101 Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Certainly. The argument in reverse however is a flawed argument. Simply because the bible doesn't contain anything specifically against the doctrine of a pre-mortal existence doesn't prove that it supports a pre-mortal existence. I agree with what exists in the bible as support for a pre-mortal existence. Hope this helps.Okay, I would award a point if an EV notes that the Bible does not say anything against flying spaghetti monsters. Nor are there any bible verses that would support the false doctrine of flying spaghetti monsters.However, that is not the case for the pre-existence of spirits, which is why I would not award a point for that.Glenn
Bart Burk Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) In this,http://www.mormondia...-pre-existence/thread, the Biblical support for the pre-existence was explored. However, some critics seem to think that the support for the pre-existence does not really exist. So, I thought it might be interesting to explore (if there is such) any claimed Biblical teaching that is explicitly against the pre-existence.The only one I have come across before is the erroneous use of 1 Cor 15:46-48.So, what say you critics?It doesn't. Origin, a theologian in the early church, taught pre-existence. The Catholic Church condemned his teaching. It really is an argument from tradition more than an argument from scripture. There are certainly scriptures in the Bible that could be interpreted to support pre-existence, but tradition has interpreted these verses simply as demonstrating God's foreknowledge. Edited August 30, 2012 by Bart Burk
Vance Posted August 30, 2012 Author Posted August 30, 2012 It seems to be apparent that there are no "explicit" verses against the pre-existence.So, I have edited the OP.
Bart Burk Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 It seems to be apparent that there are no "explicit" verses against the pre-existence.So, I have edited the OP.There aren't any explicit verses against the pre-existence in scripture. It is simply a matter of Catholic tradition versus modern revelation. Since the Protestants don't believe in either one it puts them in a pickle. I wonder if a Protestant could get away with interpreting the Bible to include pre-existence or if they would be considered heretics? They seem to be able to believe in whatever else they want to believe in. At any rate for Protestants to call the Mormon belief in pre-existence unBiblical is really a sign of their acceptance of Catholic tradition in this regard.
Vance Posted August 30, 2012 Author Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) There aren't any explicit verses against the pre-existence in scripture.Well, I have certainly never heard of or found any.It is simply a matter of Catholic tradition versus modern revelation. Since the Protestants don't believe in either one it puts them in a pickle. Yes, it does.I have always found what the Protestants accept and reject of the Catholic tradition interesting/ironic. I wonder if a Protestant could get away with interpreting the Bible to include pre-existence or if they would be considered heretics?Well, among the anti-Mormon Evangelicals I think they would be considered heretics. They seem to be able to believe in whatever else they want to believe in.Yup! At any rate for Protestants to call the Mormon belief in pre-existence unBiblical is really a sign of their acceptance of Catholic tradition in this regard.I think the only ones that do that are the anti-Mormon ones.But it is ironic that they claim "sola scriptura" while they unquestioningly accept some Catholic traditions. Edited August 30, 2012 by Vance
ANACO Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Ask your question at the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster
Zakuska Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Okay, I would award a point if an EV notes that the Bible does not say anything against flying spaghetti monsters. Nor are there any bible verses that would support the false doctrine of flying spaghetti monsters.Oh but there are scriptures that speak of flying food.Zechariah 5:11 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.Don't garlic rolls go with spaghetti?! Edited August 30, 2012 by Zakuska
JAHS Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 Here's a few real weak ones:" No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him". (John 1:18)"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father" (John 6:46)If no one has ever seen God (except Jesus) then there could'nt have been a pre-mortal life. Would not our spirits have seen Him there?"He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony." (John 3:31-32)"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world" (John 8:23)Jesus is from heaven and knows what's there; man is from earth so doesn't know what heaven is like.
Vance Posted August 31, 2012 Author Posted August 31, 2012 Here's a few real weak ones:" No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him". (John 1:18)"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father" (John 6:46)If no one has ever seen God (except Jesus) then there could'nt have been a pre-mortal life. Would not our spirits have seen Him there?"He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony." (John 3:31-32)"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world" (John 8:23)Jesus is from heaven and knows what's there; man is from earth so doesn't know what heaven is like.Hey, thanks for these.Yes they are weak.
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