If Ssa Is Not A Choice Which Appears To Be Current Thinking

[Daniel2]

Daniel, there is certainly a dearth of Christ like behavior(whatever that means. Usually defined as anything I interpret to be good). This applies to parties on both sides of this issue. There is also a great lack of self-examination on both sides of the issue.

Although I don't believe that people automatically presume that "Christlike" means "whatever I think is good, "I definitely agree that many people on both sides of this debate exhibits a lack of self examination--I tendency that I imagine that none of us are wholey immune to.

Daniel2

[Cobalt-70]

This question them becomes why do they then self identify by their sexual orientation. I just don"t recall any groups who self identify as heterosexual organizations.

A left-hander identifies as a left-hander. A black person identifies as a black person. A woman identifies as a woman. A Jew identifies as a Jew. A Celtics fan identifies as a Celtics fan. Why should a gay man not be able to identify as a gay man, but you presumably would have no problem letting him identify as a Celtics fan?

And frankly, every straight person I know identifies as a straight person. The only difference is, straight people aren't hated and discriminated against, and so they don't need to "organize."

[Daniel2]

In your politically correct world view, what term would be acceptable for describing an attraction to things that are spiritually and physically unhealthy and contrary to the natural and eternal order of things?

Whatever your answer, my interest isn't in political correctness but working towards what is best and aligning my thoughts and ways and beliefs with Christ. If that offends you, then that is your problem, not mine.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, I'm curious – do you believe that your words are reflective of the tone and attitude of LDS leadership on this topic?

And as a follow up: given your comments about ark steadying, would that seem noteworthy or significant to you at all?

Daniel2

Edited August 25, 2012 by Daniel2

[ERayR]

This is a very strange claim to make.

The entire movement to prevent same-sex couples from claiming the title of "marriage" is founded on the premise of heterosexuals defining themselves by their sexual orientation.

Historically, the concept of so-called "traditional marriage" was very much about defining one's self based on one's sexual preference – choice – orientation.

If that was not the case – then what's the point of preventing same-sex couples from marrying?

Daniel2

I the net I find the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender Community Center. I find The National LGBT Bar Association. LGBT Resource Center with calender and news letter, I do not find the Heterosexual Community Center. I do not find the heterosexual Bar Association. No heterosexual resource center etc. etc. My question is why does the homosexual community feel their identity defined by their sexual preference.

[Cobalt-70]

You would have to provide some doctrinal support for this. Why would a gay sexual orientation be an eternal trait and not asexuality. If sex is an eternal trait, what about those who have no gender? What about those born with male genitalia but are otherwise women? how is this different than being born with 6 fingers or no legs? Isn't our body also an eternal trait?

Asexuality is a sexual orientation. As to intersex people, there are a variety of combinations of sex and sexual orientation. Some intersex people are gay men. Some are lesbians. Some are straight men, and some are straight women. The shape or status of their genitalia has nothing to do with either sex or sexual orientation. Also, sometimes I think by some fluke of nature, a woman is born in a man's body, or vice versa. These are transgendered people. And sometimes, a a lesbian is born into a man's body, or a gay man is born into a woman's body.

I worry, under your standards, the eternal condition of those who have necrophilia who will live for all eternity in a place with no death. What about pedophilia, is this eternal as well? Are you suggesting that pedophiles choose this desire? I see a bit of a double standard here.

Comparing gay and lesbian people to necrophiliacs and pedophiles is extremely offensive and hateful. Necrophilia and pedophilia are crimes and mental disorders. It is not anywhere close to the same thing as sexual orientation. Indeed, necrophiliacs and pedophiles all have sexual orientation, too, just like anybody else, and it has nothing to do with dead bodies or children.

[ERayR]

A left-hander identifies as a left-hander. A black person identifies as a black person. A woman identifies as a woman. A Jew identifies as a Jew. A Celtics fan identifies as a Celtics fan. Why should a gay man not be able to identify as a gay man, but you presumably would have no problem letting him identify as a Celtics fan?

And frankly, every straight person I know identifies as a straight person. The only difference is, straight people aren't hated and discriminated against, and so they don't need to "organize."

None of those traits have anything to do with sexual preference. They do not identify as a heterosexual Celtics fan etc.

[Daniel2]

I the net I find the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender Community Center. I find The National LGBT Bar Association. LGBT Resource Center with calender and news letter, I do not find the Heterosexual Community Center. I do not find the heterosexual Bar Association. No heterosexual resource center etc. etc. My question is why does the homosexual community feel their identity defined by their sexual preference.

Cobalt gave an excellent answer to this question in his/her last post:

frankly, every straight person I know identifies as a straight person. The only difference is, straight people aren't...discriminated against, and so they don't need to "organize."

As was also said previously in this thread – I look forward to the day when I don't have to make such a big deal about wanting to have equal civil rights, and the need to emphasize fight for civil rights based on sexual orientation melts into the landscape of normalcy.

Daniel2

Edited August 25, 2012 by Daniel2

[ERayR]

Cobalt gave an excellent answer to this question in his/her last post:

frankly, every straight person I know identifies as a straight person. The only difference is, straight people aren't...discriminated against, and so they don't need to "organize."

As was also said previously in this thread – I look forward to the day when I don't have to make such a big deal about wanting to have equal civil rights, and the need to emphasize fight for civil rights based on sexual orientation melts into the landscape of normalcy.

Daniel2

Neither of you have answered the question. The question is why do homosexual people self identify by sexual orientation?

[Daniel2]

Neither of you have answered the question. The question is why do homosexual people self identify by sexual orientation?

I think we already have answered the question. It appears you just aren't in agreement with our answer. However, I'll try answering it in another way:

I submit that we ALL define ourselves by our sexual orientation--sometimes explicitly, and sometimes implicitly. I think humans often define ourselves by the roles we play in life, by the preferences we have, by whom we choose to form relationships with. I think self-definition is part of normal, healthy, and valuable self validation and self affirmation. And often, coming together in a community of like-minded individuals offers similar benefits.

Daniel2

[Daniel2]

Duplicate post.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Daniel2

[ERayR]

I think we already have answered the question. It appears you just aren't in agreement with our answer. However, I'll try answering it in another way:

I submit that we ALL define ourselves by our sexual orientation--sometimes explicitly, and sometimes implicitly. I think humans often define ourselves by the roles we play in life, by the preferences we have, by whom we choose to form relationships with. I think self-definition is part of normal, healthy, and valuable self validation and self affirmation. And often, coming together in a community of like-minded individuals offers similar benefits.

Daniel2

Daniel2

And I think you are not addressing, or don't want to address this phenomenon. I really. honestly and truly, don't care how you answer it but I do think it is something you need to give honest consideration to, especially if you really can't see the difference in the comparisons you made.

[Carborendum]

If SSA is not a choice, which appears to be current thinking of the church that it is indeed not a choice

I'm not certain this is so.

Is losing your temper a choice?

Is getting depressed a choice?

Is being confused a choice?

Is falling in love a choice?

We are expected to control our tempers. We are expected to overcome depression and confusion. We are supposed to be wise about with whom we engage in romantic relations. If it is indeed a "feeling" as most gays will express, then it should be treated like any other feeling or passion.

In the end it doesn't matter if it is a choice or if we're just born that way or not. We have been commanded to bridle such passions and control our behavior resulting from them.

[Deborah]

Sexual orientation is, by definition, the "inclination" to have sexual relations with people of a particular sex. I'm sure that even Thomas S. Monson has an "inclination" to have sex with women, and he had that same inclination before he was married, because he's a straight guy.

Thank you for making the point that it isn't the "inclination" that is sinful; it's how one chooses to exercise it.

[altersteve]

Is losing your temper a choice?

Yes, because losing your temper is a behavior.

[Freedom]

Asexuality is a sexual orientation. As to intersex people, there are a variety of combinations of sex and sexual orientation. Some intersex people are gay men. Some are lesbians. Some are straight men, and some are straight women. The shape or status of their genitalia has nothing to do with either sex or sexual orientation. Also, sometimes I think by some fluke of nature, a woman is born in a man's body, or vice versa. These are transgendered people. And sometimes, a a lesbian is born into a man's body, or a gay man is born into a woman's body.

Comparing gay and lesbian people to necrophiliacs and pedophiles is extremely offensive and hateful. Necrophilia and pedophilia are crimes and mental disorders. It is not anywhere close to the same thing as sexual orientation. Indeed, necrophiliacs and pedophiles all have sexual orientation, too, just like anybody else, and it has nothing to do with dead bodies or children.

Well, homosexuality is considered by many to be a mental disorder. To diminish these genuine feelings of these people is, to me, offensive and hateful. Why should gay people get special status and not people with sexual attractions that are different from theirs? the fact is, there are all sorts of sexual preferences and they cannot all be eternal. You have clearly drawn a line in the sand, it just happens to be in a different location then where mine is drawn. Either sexuality is eternal or it is not. If it is eternal, how can these people be born in the wrong body? You are being a bit two faced here.

[Carborendum]

Yes, because losing your temper is a behavior.

Not the way I was brought up. If I got too angry and decided to go to my room to cool off, that was called losing your temper.

[Carborendum]

Asexuality is a sexual orientation.

So, 'bald' is a hair color?

[DBMormon]

cfr for it not being a choice as stated by the church

Elder Holland http://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/10/helping-those-who-struggle-with-same-gender-attraction

“As for why you feel as you do, I can’t answer that question. A number of factors may be involved, and they can be as different as people are different. Some things, including the cause of your feelings, we may never know in this life. But knowing why you feel as you do isn’t as important as knowing you have not transgressed. If your life is in harmony with the commandments, then you are worthy to serve in the Church, enjoy full fellowship with the members, attend the temple, and receive all the blessings of the Savior’s Atonement.”

If it is a choice then one has used agency and transgressed but Elder Holland reassures those with SSA that while the exact cause is unknown their attraction is not a sin or transgression...

I didn't said born with but rather not a choice... there is a difference

[Carborendum]

Cobalt gave an excellent answer to this question in his/her last post:

Not really. The difference is that with most gays I've known, they feel that their orientation is part of what defines them as a person. Heterosexuals don't.

frankly, every straight person I know identifies as a straight person

While it is true that when asked, they will reply in order to fill in the appropriate check box on a form. But it is not what defines them.

The only difference is, straight people aren't...discriminated against, and so they don't need to "organize."

While this is a good argument about the organizing part, this doesn't clearly answer the "identifying" question. However, I believe the next statement comes close.

I look forward to the day when I don't have to make such a big deal about wanting to have equal civil rights, and the need to emphasize fight for civil rights based on sexual orientation melts into the landscape of normalcy.

You self identify because you feel different. My question is...why do you feel different?

I don't buy the argument that "society" makes you feel different. I'm an Asian raised during the Bruce Lee and Kung Fu craze of the 70s and 80s. At the same time, I continually saw news shows about those "super smart" Japanese and Chinese whiz kids. I saw the stereotype in movies and so forth. But 90% of those with whom I came in contact on a daily basis held no such stereotypes. But because of media and entertainment, I bought into the stereotype.

I personally identified as an Oriental (at the time, that was the vernacular). But once I stopped listening to other sources, once I started recognizing how I was in reality being treated, I dropped that label as an identity. Now, I don't even think about it. When the subject comes up, I will say I am Asian. But it doesn't identify me anymore.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Carborendum

[DBMormon]

There is a possible translation with Christ himself possibly indicating that some are born with SSA

Mathew 19:12

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Eunuch is one who is not attracted to women for various reasons and can be trusted with the harem or women of the house of their master. Christ says some are born to fill this role and others are castrated and others choose to set their desires aside

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eunuch

look at #3

The Greek word is derived from eun, "bed," and ekhein, "to keep." A eunuch, of course, was ideally suited to guard the bedchamber of women.

Edited August 25, 2012 by DBMormon

[smac97]

I can personally vouch for the intentions of the OP. DBMormon is a very faithful and active member of the church. He has nothing but good intentions. I will not "out" him here, but sufficet to say if you really knew him you would withhold your ad hominem critique.

Meh. I don't see how membership in the Church alters the risible assumptions about and unwarranted hectoring of the Saints in the OP.

-Smac

[DBMormon]

Wade Englund - No it doesn't. It simply means that SSA isn't a characteristic of the spiritual man.

Now i call for CFR. Elder Oaks and Holland both indicate that SSA does not prevent anyone from all the blessings of God. SSA is part of who they are. With or Without SSA doesn't reflect at all the spiritual man they are or can be. Even if only speaking of the eternal soul, one has no quote from a recent LDS leader saying this SSA absolutely goes away the moment we cross the veil.

[DBMormon]

Meh. I don't see how membership in the Church alters the risible assumptions about and unwarranted hectoring of the Saints in the OP.

-Smac

There are Latter-Day Saints who firmly hold onto old false traditions and do not adopt better paradigms becasue in the church we don't hit the troublesome issues in a way that makes it clear to them that a change in their mindset is needed.

These false concepts divide, hurt, discriminate, and break ........ where am I wrong?

Edited August 25, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

honest question coming up.

The question is - "Do you feel the opinions of the extremely conservative LDS views of people here that post in threads like these do damage to members of the church who come on here seeking understanding but also are struggling in a way that they come here with some amount of fragilty"? In other words would someone with SSA be uplifted and encouraged by those comments or hurt and discouraged even assuming they are trying to put off the natural man?

Edited August 25, 2012 by DBMormon

[Zeta-Flux]

Now i call for CFR. Elder Oaks and Holland both indicate that SSA does not prevent anyone from all the blessings of God. SSA is part of who they are. With or Without SSA doesn't reflect at all the spiritual man they are or can be. Even if only speaking of the eternal soul, one has no quote from a recent LDS leader saying this SSA absolutely goes away the moment we cross the veil.

He didn't claim any reference.

What happens if you replace "SSA" in the sentences above with "temptations." I think each and every sentence remains true. Temptations do not prevent anyone from all the blessings of God. Temptations are part of who we are. With or without temptations doesn't reflect at all the spiritual men/women we are or can be. Even if only speaking of the eternal soul, one has no quote from a recent (or past) LDS leader saying that temptations absolutely go away the moment we cross the veil.