A Fictional Book Of Mormon?

[Tacenda]

So, in other words, you don't really know what you're talking about, right?

That's why I come to the experts! Thanks Kevin Christensen!

Edited August 17, 2012 by Tacenda

[sethpayne]

Seems that many disaffected Mormons ask that question, because many still have feelings for the book. The Book of Mormon has always had a pull on me, from the very first day I started reading it. Even after I considered myself a "non-believer" in the church...and to this very day, I believe the book is inspired. I have also believed it might be inspired fiction, but my beliefs about that have never been in stone. I've been trying to wrap my brain around why, the Book of Mormon being fiction, would be a problem. I guess, the biggest problem, I see, is that it could not stand as "another testimony of Christ", if it were simply fiction.

Hi Libs,

I have to disagree with you here. Frankly, I don't know if the BoM is fiction or not -- inspired allegory -- whatever. For me, I see a lot of 19th century protestantism which makes me lean to a 19th century origin. Having said that, the BoM is a mystery as there are several things about it which -- whether historical or not -- truly are remarkable.

Anyway, the Book of Mormon inspires me to be more Christ-like. I don't really care if its historical or not.

Seth

[cursor]

Maybe Cursor could find this out for me, if he'd even want to. Listed below are places that are mentioned in the BoM. Has Dr. Sorenson located any of them in Mesoamerica? I saw this list on someones resignation letter to the church, it was one of their reasons for leaving.

[ ... long list ...]

Are you asking if he has identified where some of these places were located in Mesoamerica, or might you be asking if those specific names occur anywhere in Mesoamerica?

[Bill Hamblin]

Hi Libs,

I have to disagree with you here. Frankly, I don't know if the BoM is fiction or not -- inspired allegory -- whatever. For me, I see a lot of 19th century protestantism which makes me lean to a 19th century origin. Having said that, the BoM is a mystery as there are several things about it which -- whether historical or not -- truly are remarkable.

Anyway, the Book of Mormon inspires me to be more Christ-like. I don't really care if its historical or not.

Seth

Being Christlike is quite different than believing that Jesus is the Christ.

The fact that you personally don't care doesn't mean the question is not important.

But the question raised by the fictional BOM is whether Joseph is an authentic prophet. The question is not whether you find the book personally inspiring fiction.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Bill Hamblin

[sethpayne]

Being Christlike is quite different than believing that Jesus is the Christ.

Not to me, Bill. Living a moral life emulating Jesus of Nazareth is far more important than holding a metaphysical belief, IMO.

And besides, isn't whole point of believing that Jesus is the Christ is to make individuals *like* Christ? I suppose I don't see this metaphysical belief as a good in itself. I see it as being good insofar as it leads to Christ-like moral behavior.

Is our Heavenly Father more interested in who we are or in what we believe? I think both. However, who we are and what we do would seem to be of greater importance, at least from my POV.

ETA: When our focus is on belief I think we are getting dangerously close to radical Evangelicalism where somehow belief in the Trinity is the lynchpin of salvation.

Edited August 17, 2012 by sethpayne

[Tacenda]

Are you asking if he has identified where some of these places were located in Mesoamerica, or might you be asking if those specific names occur anywhere in Mesoamerica?

Either or both. I'm just asking because it'd be nice to have something.

[Bill Hamblin]

Not to me, Bill. Living a moral life emulating Jesus of Nazareth is far more important than holding a metaphysical belief, IMO.

And besides, isn't whole point of believing that Jesus is the Christ is to make individuals *like* Christ? I suppose I don't see this metaphysical belief as a good in itself. I see it as being good insofar as it leads to Christ-like moral behavior.

Is our Heavenly Father more interested in who we are or in what we believe? I think both. However, who we are and what we do would seem to be of greater importance, at least from my POV.

This is precisely the type of equivocation by marginal believers that really annoys me.

The question I raised is not how you should behave--however important that is. The question I raised is: if the BOM is fictional can JS be an authentic prophet.

The fact of the matter is, I think you agree with me that the answer is no, because, if I understand correctly, you don't believe JS was an authentic prophet.

There are lots of books that can inspire us to be nice. I applaud them all. But that's not the question. It's fine if you want to read the BOM for insights into Christ-like behavior. I encourage you to do so.

But, again, that's not the question I raised. Please don't answer MY question by equivocating and answer a different question that I did not raise, and then imply that you are answering my question.

[cursor]

Either or both. I'm just asking because it'd be nice to have something.

In 1985 he published An Ancient American Setting For the Book of Mormon. In it he makes a number of solid correlations between Book of Mormon lands and locations in Mesoamerica.

Peek here for a single example, Tacenda.

Edited August 17, 2012 by cursor

[Tacenda]

In 1985 he published An Ancient American Setting For the Book of Mormon. In it he makes a number of solid correlations between Book of Mormon lands and locations in Mesoamerica.

Thanks, you're very respectful to those of us like me, that not only wonder but question too!

[sethpayne]

This is precisely the type of equivocation by marginal believers that really annoys me.

Sorry to annoy you, Bill. I'm really not worth getting annoyed over.

The question I raised is not how you should behave--however important that is. The question I raised is: if the BOM is fictional can JS be an authentic prophet.

As you know I think this is a false dichotomy; a discussion of which would derail this thread. Suffice it to say we simply see this issue very differently.

I think someone quoted a statement regarding Mohammad/Buddha etc.... Were they not "authentic?" They made very clear metaphysical claims which, are mutually exclusive of Mormon metaphysical claims. Were they delusional? Or, was God speaking to them in a way they understood based on their cultural context? I don't know but I'm hesitant to employ the prophet/fraud dichotomy.

The fact of the matter is, I think you agree with me that the answer is no, because, if I understand correctly, you don't believe JS was an authentic prophet.

You have misunderstood me. I don't know if Joseph Smith was an "authentic" (now there is a loaded word) prophet or not. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

If an "authentic" prophet is a person to whom God reveals truth that inspires moral behavior and functional and supportive communities then yes, I believe Joseph Smith was an authentic prophet.

But, again, that's not the question I raised. Please don't answer MY question by equivocating and answer a different question that I did not raise, and then imply that you are answering my question.

Um.... I was responding to Libs

I think it's pretty clear that you and I simply have a different perspective on this issue. Spice of life and all that....

[mfbukowski]

This is the single point that I think almost every critic that attacks the LDS Church and/or the Book of Mormon gets it wrong. They fail to understand that the purpose of the Book of Mormon is twofold:

1. Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—
   
2. And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations
   

They seek to destroy the credibility of Joseph Smith and his followers. They seek to denigrate the Holy Spirit and how God interacts with the heart of man. They do everything and yet can do nothing against the simple objective of proclaiming that Jesus is the Christ. Why does the Book of Mormon have such a pull on people who read it with sincerity? It begins and ends with Jesus Christ.

We have our trials and our fits of faith and yet that still, small voice remains to declare to our souls that our God is there, that he remembers each of us, and loves us. The Church's mortal ministry may be lead by men, with their own weaknesses, but Jesus Christ is still the head of his Church and it is to him that our hearts and faith are and should be linked.

What I found so compelling about the Book of Mormon, though at first I was totally skeptical of its origins, was the Moroni promise in Moroni 10:4-5.

It was the most phenomenal thing I had ever read in my life. This book in front of me was claiming that I could actually ask God if it was "true" whatever that meant (not much to me at the time)

I prayed and had a completely life-transforming experience.

Obviously I still cannot figure that all out intellectually, but what I know is that God told me it was true and I cannot nor will I ever deny it.

Trying to figure that all out intellectually is something I have been working on for over 30 years now, but I cannot doubt it for a minute.

[William Schryver]

And you'd be so right!!

It's clear that you don't understand Bill's question, so let me re-phrase it to help you out.

Do you have a list of any of the names of places in Mesoamerica during the Pre-classic Era (prior to 250 AD)?

[Tacenda]

What I found so compelling about the Book of Mormon, though at first I was totally skeptical of its origins, was the Moroni promise in Moroni 10:4-5.

It was the most phenomenal thing I had ever read in my life. This book in front of me was claiming that I could actually ask God if it was "true" whatever that meant (not much to me at the time)

I prayed and had a completely life-transforming experience.

Obviously I still cannot figure that all out intellectually, but what I know is that God told me it was true and I cannot nor will I ever deny it.

Trying to figure that all out intellectually is something I have been working on for over 30 years now, but I cannot doubt it for a minute.

I'm not downplaying your experience I only wish I could have one like it. But the nonlds christian always ask this question, they ask how come God didn't ask us to pray if the bible is true? I just wanted to hear what you thought.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

I think someone quoted a statement regarding Mohammad/Buddha etc.... Were they not "authentic?" They made very clear metaphysical claims which, are mutually exclusive of Mormon metaphysical claims. Were they delusional? Or, was God speaking to them in a way they understood based on their cultural context? I don't know but I'm hesitant to employ the prophet/fraud dichotomy.

Hi Seth!

Agree strongly on the metaphysics of Buddhism- clearly they have nothing to do with Mormonism. And actually I think the metaphysical claims of Islam agree pretty well with Mormonism, at least for those who take a Neoplatonic view of Mormon metaphysics, which are probably many here.

But this prophet/fraud dichotomy I agree is horribly difficult to define here

[harfad]

"Nevertheless, my work shall go forth, for inasmuch as the knowledge of a Savior has come unto the world, through the testimony of the Jews, even so shall the cknowledge of a Savior come unto my people—

"And to the Nephites, and the Jacobites, and the Josephites, and the Zoramites, through the testimony of their fathers—

"And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites, because of their iniquities and their abominations.

"And for this very purpose are these plates preserved, which contain these records—that the promises of the Lord might be fulfilled, which he made to his people;

"And that the Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they may believe the gospel and rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ, and be glorified through faith in his name, and that through their repentance they might be saved. Amen." (D&C 3:16-20.)

"And he has translated the book, even that part which I have commanded him, and as your Lord and your God liveth it is true." (D&C 17:6.)

[Tacenda]

It's clear that you don't understand Bill's question, so let me re-phrase it to help you out.

Do you have a list of any of the names of places in Mesoamerica during the Pre-classic Era (prior to 250 AD)?

No, couldn't tell you, therefore the answer to my first question, I'm catching on.

[William Schryver]

Not to me, Bill. Living a moral life emulating Jesus of Nazareth is far more important than holding a metaphysical belief, IMO.

And besides, isn't whole point of believing that Jesus is the Christ is to make individuals *like* Christ? I suppose I don't see this metaphysical belief as a good in itself. I see it as being good insofar as it leads to Christ-like moral behavior.

Is our Heavenly Father more interested in who we are or in what we believe? I think both. However, who we are and what we do would seem to be of greater importance, at least from my POV.

ETA: When our focus is on belief I think we are getting dangerously close to radical Evangelicalism where somehow belief in the Trinity is the lynchpin of salvation.

I cannot see how the Book of Mormon can have any power to persuade one to believe Jesus is the Christ, or to live a Christ-like life unless it is a truly historical record that gives an account of the resurrected Christ visiting the Nephites in the 1st century AD.

This is the incoherence inherent in the notion that the Book of Mormon is a fictional account. Either the resurrected Christ appeared to the Nephites, or he did not. And if he did not, then the Book of Mormon has no intrinsic power to persuade people to believe in Christ, let alone emulate him.

[mfbukowski]

I'm not downplaying your experience I only wish I could have one like it. But the nonlds christian always ask this question, they ask how come God didn't ask us to pray if the bible is true? I just wanted to hear what you thought.

I think it is clear that many just believe the Bible because they were raised to do so- and I am sure that is true of many Mormons as well, Catholics, Muslims etc.

But I think in the case of Evangelicals there is always an experience which they call "being saved" which in my opinion is what parallels the Mormon testimony experience. There is something that happens which causes them to come forth at an altar call, for example and "accept Christ".

I have gone around and around on this with some well-known Evangelical critics of the church and they have never, in my opinion, been able to show that I am wrong. Arguably, even William Craig acknowledges this, and there is quite an active movement dedicated to "experiencing God" now among Evangelicals.

[sethpayne]

I cannot see how the Book of Mormon can have any power to persuade one to believe Jesus is the Christ, or to live a Christ-like life unless it is a truly historical record that gives an account of the resurrected Christ visiting the Nephites in the 1st century AD.

Hi Will,

I hope I can live a life that will demonstrate that such persuasion is an absolute possibility.

Seth

[William Schryver]

Sorry to annoy you, Bill. I'm really not worth getting annoyed over.

I'm inclined to agree with you on that point, but it is irrelevant to Bill's question.

I think someone quoted a statement regarding Mohammad/Buddha etc.... Were they not "authentic?" They made very clear metaphysical claims which, are mutually exclusive of Mormon metaphysical claims. Were they delusional? Or, was God speaking to them in a way they understood based on their cultural context? I don't know but I'm hesitant to employ the prophet/fraud dichotomy.

I don't understand why you would be hesitant on this point. It's not that difficult. If an angel did not, in reality, convey to Mohammed the words recorded in the Quran, then he was not an authentic prophet, regardless of whether or not the words of the Quran seem inspired.

You have misunderstood me. I don't know if Joseph Smith was an "authentic" (now there is a loaded word) prophet or not. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

If an "authentic" prophet is a person to whom God reveals truth that inspires moral behavior and functional and supportive communities then yes, I believe Joseph Smith was an authentic prophet.

This is a fallacious definition of an "authentic" prophet. The question is simple: if God the Father and Jesus Christ did not, in reality, appear to Joseph Smith; if an angel named Moroni did not, in reality, appear to Joseph Smith and deliver to him actual gold plates upon which were inscribed a record of a historical people (the Nephites), then Joseph Smith was not an "authentic" prophet. There is no logical, coherent way to equivocate on the question.

I think it's pretty clear that you and I simply have a different perspective on this issue. Spice of life and all that....

It's not a question of perspective. It's a question of truth. And truth is the knowledge of things as they really were. (I have always found it fascinating that the word "really" only appears once in the entire canon of scripture: the passage in Jacob in the Book of Mormon wherein the definition of truth is given:

Jacob 4:13

Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old.

[Cobalt-70]

What I found so compelling about the Book of Mormon, though at first I was totally skeptical of its origins, was the Moroni promise in Moroni 10:4-5.

It was the most phenomenal thing I had ever read in my life. This book in front of me was claiming that I could actually ask God if it was "true" whatever that meant (not much to me at the time)

I prayed and had a completely life-transforming experience.

Obviously I still cannot figure that all out intellectually, but what I know is that God told me it was true and I cannot nor will I ever deny it.

Trying to figure that all out intellectually is something I have been working on for over 30 years now, but I cannot doubt it for a minute.

The "truth" of a book can mean a lot of different things. I absolutely agree that the Book of Mormon is "true." It's not a history of real people, but in a sense, if it were a real history, that would make it less "true." Only in fiction (or at least historical fiction) can you arrange the genre, plot, themes, and characters in a way that speaks to the human soul.

[mfbukowski]

This is precisely the type of equivocation by marginal believers that really annoys me.

I really think a Christlike attitude is important even in those who see themselves as "true believers"- in fact one would hope that those who see themselves as "stronger believers" than others would actually manifest such an attitude.

We are all doing the best we can- these are hard questions we all must face.

[William Schryver]

Hi Will,

I hope I can live a life that will demonstrate that such persuasion is an absolute possibility.

Seth

You can't. It is not possible. As the Prophet Joseph Smith said:

Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve, it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.’ ”

Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy

[mfbukowski]

I cannot see how the Book of Mormon can have any power to persuade one to believe Jesus is the Christ, or to live a Christ-like life unless it is a truly historical record that gives an account of the resurrected Christ visiting the Nephites in the 1st century AD.

This is the incoherence inherent in the notion that the Book of Mormon is a fictional account. Either the resurrected Christ appeared to the Nephites, or he did not. And if he did not, then the Book of Mormon has no intrinsic power to persuade people to believe in Christ, let alone emulate him.

And then again we have Moroni 10: 4-5 which has nothing to do with intellectualism whatsoever.

That was a pretty powerful persuader for me all by itself.

[mfbukowski]

The "truth" of a book can mean a lot of different things. I absolutely agree that the Book of Mormon is "true." It's not a history of real people, but in a sense, if it were a real history, that would make it less "true." Only in fiction (or at least historical fiction) can you arrange the genre, plot, themes, and characters in a way that speaks to the human soul.

The book didn't speak to me- God did.