Bradley And Hanks At Sunstone

[kolipoki09]

I hadn't thought of publishing my presentation until Peggy Stack suggested it last night. Perhaps I'll expand it a bit and publish it somewhere. I think it could do some good.

Don

If Signature Books and other LDS publishers/academic presses can produce anthologies on dissenters in LDS history (i.e. Mormon Mavericks, Differing Visions, Playing with Shadows), I honestly wonder where stories of "returning prodigals" (to borrow Joseph Smith's phrase) might fit. "Kofford Books" brings up a good point about not selling sacred things for money, but I think it comes down to authors being comfortable about going public with why they came back. Obviously, I think testimonies from Maxine and Don would be fascinating, as would stories from people like Avraham Gileadi (though, I doubt he'd ever publish it) and even Janet L. Eyring. There could also be scholarly essays about people like Oliver Cowdery, Thomas B. Marsh, William W. Phelps, and Martin Harris. As apologetic as it might sound, it doesn't have to be.

[Tacenda]

The people on this forum who end up on such conferences as spectators are interesting to talk to. They are just normal people who enjoy BBQ's, baseball, knitting, movies etc. Normal people....

And they would find you interesting too.

I know how to fish for compliments, thanks Why Me.

[Tacenda]

This makes sense if staying enables the gospel to eventually work in those people in the way it is intended. It makes sense if the bridge being built is ultimately to Christ. It doesn't make sense if the bridge is being built to nowhere in particular except to staying. The gospel isn't about staying, but about moving forward towards Christ.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I agree somewhat, because it may take a lifetime to figure it all out for some. And for those that stay for family and friends, it may help them also. It's alot better, than staying with the friction that they're doing something wrong, if they side with the people that think they're going to hell for staying.

[wenglund]

I agree somewhat, because it may take a lifetime to figure it all out for some.

This is part of the problem. We don't need to figure it all out. God has done that for us, and he has said it is all about coming to Christ and becoming like him. All we need to do is humble ourselves, have faith, repent, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and live according God's will.

This is why if any bridges are to be built, they ought to be built to lead to Christ. Otherwise, people may end up, as you say, spinning their febble human wheels over their lifetime trying to figure out what God with his infinite knowledge and wisdom has already figured out for them, and perhaps in the process fail to get to the things that are really needful for them--i.e. living the gospel.

In short, and as I suggested earlier, if people are to build bridges, it ought to be to Christ, and to letting God conform men to his image. We do ourselves and others a huge favor by stop trying to figure it all out, and devote our energies instead to striving to become the very best people and promote the very best relationships possible.

Conversely, we do ourselves a huge disservice by building a bridge to staying on a lifelong path that tends to lead to nowhere in trying to conform God to our image of him.

As always, the choice is each of ours.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 30, 2012 by wenglund

[CASteinman]

If Signature Books and other LDS publishers/academic presses can produce anthologies on dissenters in LDS history (i.e. Mormon Mavericks, Differing Visions, Playing with Shadows), I honestly wonder where stories of "returning prodigals" (to borrow Joseph Smith's phrase) might fit. "Kofford Books" brings up a good point about not selling sacred things for money, but I think it comes down to authors being comfortable about going public with why they came back. Obviously, I think testimonies from Maxine and Don would be fascinating, as would stories from people like Avraham Gileadi (though, I doubt he'd ever publish it) and even Janet L. Eyring. There could also be scholarly essays about people like Oliver Cowdery, Thomas B. Marsh, William W. Phelps, and Martin Harris. As apologetic as it might sound, it doesn't have to be.

There was also some woman who became a ferocious anti-Mormon in England for many years -- destroying the faith of many people -- who then returned to the Church. I do not recall her name.

I think that there are probably lots of these stories but they just have not been advertised.

[Libs]

Such an awesome day at the symposium. Very faith promoting.

Maxine spoke about a "hero's journey" and coming full circle. She and Don both took it so I don't have to.

In a post on another thread I asked Don how one put's the tootpaste back in once it's out, a little saying I'm sure you've heard. Well Don didn't answer my flippant question, and I feel extremely naive for asking now. But he did answer my question tonight, in a most enlightening way.

I think the church is evolving to the point that the Savior would be proud and it's people like Don and Maxine and even the John Dehlins that are going to help make the circle bigger to allow people to stay and partake.

I so do hope that materializes. Thanks for sharing this, Tacenda.

[Libs]

If Signature Books and other LDS publishers/academic presses can produce anthologies on dissenters in LDS history (i.e. Mormon Mavericks, Differing Visions, Playing with Shadows), I honestly wonder where stories of "returning prodigals" (to borrow Joseph Smith's phrase) might fit. "Kofford Books" brings up a good point about not selling sacred things for money, but I think it comes down to authors being comfortable about going public with why they came back. Obviously, I think testimonies from Maxine and Don would be fascinating, as would stories from people like Avraham Gileadi (though, I doubt he'd ever publish it) and even Janet L. Eyring. There could also be scholarly essays about people like Oliver Cowdery, Thomas B. Marsh, William W. Phelps, and Martin Harris. As apologetic as it might sound, it doesn't have to be.

Ohmygoodness, Jan Eyring was in my Ward for a couple of years. She came back to the church around the time of my conversion. She is an amazing person and so sweet! I had not seen this testimony (although, she did share with us, many times, in Sacrament). Thank you for sharing it!

[kolipoki09]

Ohmygoodness, Jan Eyring was in my Ward for a couple of years. She came back to the church around the time of my conversion. She is an amazing person and so sweet! I had not seen this testimony (although, she did share with us, many times, in Sacrament). Thank you for sharing it!

I like Jan's testimony a lot. There are a few that I frequently find myself going back to, and her's is a personal favorite. Nothing particularly sappy. Just simple as she understands it.

[Libs]

I like Jan's testimony a lot. There are a few that I frequently find myself going back to, and her's is a personal favorite. Nothing particularly sappy. Just simple as she understands it.

Yes, she was really pretty eloquent in expressing herself, and even became quite emotional, on occasion. I really enjoyed her company. She lived just a few blocks from me, but then moved after she married, and was in a different ward, so I didn't see her much, after that. That has been many years ago. It's nice to know that she is still in the church and doing well.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Libs

[Tacenda]

I agree somewhat, because it may take a lifetime to figure it all out for some. And for those that stay for family and friends, it may help them also. It's alot better, than staying with the friction that they're doing something wrong, if they side with the people that think they're going to hell for staying.

I'm quoting myself, because I feel I didn't explain something very well.

If it hadn't been for places like staylds.com or even newordermormon.com and now Mormon Dialogue and recently,the Mormonstories conference and Sunstone Symposium. I may well have resigned and joined another faith by now. These places have sustained me for many years. I'm a slow learner I guess.

But it seems I've been stagnant and really not going anywhere, so even though I'm glad I didn't resign, it's about time I get some sort of testimony again, of my Savoir and what he wants for me.

[Libs]

It all takes time, Tacenda. Sometimes a lot of time. I rushed into something else, right after I left the LDS Church, and it was soooo wrong for me, in the end. BUT, it did give me a new appreciation of the LDS Church and I learned a LOT about the current Evangelical churches and their doctrine. Comes in handy, sometimes, when they want to "discuss".

Wishing you the best...and I agree with you about those "middle ways"...they can be very helpful, when we are in that place.

[wenglund]

But it seems I've been stagnant and really not going anywhere, so even though I'm glad I didn't resign, it's about time I get some sort of testimony again, of my Savoir and what he wants for me.

Fantastic!! Please keep us apprised of your progress.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tacenda]

It all takes time, Tacenda. Sometimes a lot of time. I rushed into something else, right after I left the LDS Church, and it was soooo wrong for me, in the end. BUT, it did give me a new appreciation of the LDS Church and I learned a LOT about the current Evangelical churches and their doctrine. Comes in handy, sometimes, when they want to "discuss".

Wishing you the best...and I agree with you about those "middle ways"...they can be very helpful, when we are in that place.

Thanks Libs, I do remember you told me you attended an Evangelical faith. I've yet to attend one. Maybe I should get that comparison of the two, not to put them down, but maybe sometimes I think the "grass is greener" until I actually see for myself.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Tacenda

[Libs]

Yes, sometimes, there is no better teacher than experience.

[why me]

I know how to fish for compliments, thanks Why Me.

I remember many years ago when I got my doctorate. My opponent was the top expert in his field. He wrote books that where difficult to understand. But when I met him, he was a nice guy who spoke a language that was normal. He spoke of little things going on in his life etc. He wasn't the man of his books when I met him in person. It is the same with the people who attend such conferences like the FAIR conference. They are just normal people sharing a laugh and a hot dog.

[why me]

But it seems I've been stagnant and really not going anywhere, so even though I'm glad I didn't resign, it's about time I get some sort of testimony again, of my Savoir and what he wants for me.

Maxine Hanks is a good example. When I listened to her in 2003, she seemed all over the place when it came to faith. She seemed to be searching for answers in other faiths. But now she is back in the faith. I think that we can all learn from her story. Both her and don bradley have different stories to tell but they both can help many people get back their footing.

Maybe the spirit is softly telling you to come back now...since the words on this forum are speaking to you throughout the day. But I cannot be a hypocrite. I am not very active in the faith. But I do attend meetings. So, it may be just good to start attending again and work your way in slowly.

Edited July 30, 2012 by why me

[Tacenda]

Maxine Hanks is a good example. When I listened to her in 2003, she seemed all over the place when it came to faith. She seemed to be searching for answers in other faiths. But now she is back in the faith. I think that we can all learn from her story. Both her and don bradley have different stories to tell but they both can help many people get back their footing.

Maybe the spirit is softly telling you to come back now...since the words on this forum are speaking to you throughout the day. But I cannot be a hypocrite. I am not very active in the faith. But I do attend meetings. So, it may be just good to start attending again and work your way in slowly.

I noticed you went to GD class today. Because I went also and had the same lesson. Which made me realize you weren't totally inactive. I understand though if it's difficult to go. I have to talk myself into it or have a calling that requires me to be there. I think the Lord knows we could probably do fine learning the gospel on our own but thinks it's good to have that social contact and support. Did I just give you advice? Lol

Edited July 30, 2012 by Tacenda

[Libs]

Listened to this podcast of John Dehlin's, this morning, and have to say it made me very emotional, because I share so many of his concerns and struggles with the church. Very poignant (and I hope it is okay to post this here?). Tacenda, did you get to hear John's talk?

Why I Stay

http://mormonstories.org/john-dehlin-why-i-stay/

[why me]

I noticed you went to GD class today. Because I went also and had the same lesson. Which made me realize you weren't totally inactive. I understand though if it's difficult to go. I have to talk myself into it or have a calling that requires me to be there. I think the Lord knows we could probably do fine learning the gospel on our own but thinks it's good to have that social contact and support. Did I just give you advice? Lol

I like hearing other people's comments in class and I do make my own. Yesterday, I mentioned Don Bradley in class when it came to testimony. We were studying Alma's testimony to his son Helamon. I mentioned Don because his testimony has helped many come back to the church or think twice before leaving. I think that it is important to hear and reflect on what others think. I also think that it is a good way to get others to think. I hope that you can see it this way too.

What keeps my toes in the church is the early history with Joseph and the witnesses and my own witness that I received when I prayed about the book of mormon. The early history is interesting. If all this is a fraud, Joseph had tremendous luck.

[Tacenda]

Listened to this podcast of John Dehlin's, this morning, and have to say it made me very emotional, because I share so many of his concerns and struggles with the church. Very poignant (and I hope it is okay to post this here?). Tacenda, did you get to hear John's talk?

Why I Stay

http://mormonstories...lin-why-i-stay/

I got there a few minutes late and sat at the back on the floor. In fact Joanna Brooks and I arrived at the same time and she also was at the back on the floor, leaning up against the wall. It was packed. I was also thrilled to have listened to Carol Lynn Pearson. She was fantastic. Hopefully they'll post her audio on Mormonstories also. One thing that stood out to me, is when she said, not her exact words btw, she said while sitting in sacrament she leaned over to someone, can't remember who, and said it pisses her off that the patriarchs in the church always produce the best men. IOW she thought despite some things she doesn't like that they do, they sure produce some amazing husbands, sons, brother's etc. Does that make sense? I think I'm doing a disservice by even mentioning this because it's out of context. But it stood out because I think the same thing.

I just barely listened to the podcast again because when I was at the symposium, I was barely awake because I didn't sleep the night before. Very good podcast! I wish you lived closer, it would have been fun to go together!

[daz2]

The solution, for me, has *not* been to try to put what I've learned into the same "container" it was in before, but to place it in a much *larger* container of faith and understanding.

Thank you Don. That is how I have come to peace with my religion and with my God. For some, it may be easy. It may even appear simple. In the end, I suppose it is simply--having an open mind, without preconceptions, and allow God to work with us and our understandings. My understanding likely is different from Don's or Maxine's. It is almost certainly different from many with whom I attend each week. But I am at peace with God and God's faith community, and grateful to be a part of it.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Thank you Don. That is how I have come to peace with my religion and with my God. For some, it may be easy. It may even appear simple. In the end, I suppose it is simply--having an open mind, without preconceptions, and allow God to work with us and our understandings. My understanding likely is different from Don's or Maxine's. It is almost certainly different from many with whom I attend each week. But I am at peace with God and God's faith community, and grateful to be a part of it.

Don and I had a few good chats while we were at Sunstone last week. He has a good heart. It will be interesting to carry on with him via the internet about the things I am learning. He told me of a great book by Sam Harris "The End of Faith." As it is, that is one I just recently acquired and am going to start this week. Just finished Stenger and am read a phenom of a book by John W. Loftus, "Why I Became an Atheist." Wow what a read! Anyway, Hector Avalos' book "Why Biblical Studies Must End" is also interesting, because he is using the Bible scholars' conclusions themselves to show why the Bible is for all intents and purposes simply irrelevant to us today, so why bother studying it? Anyway, more later.....

[Libs]

I got there a few minutes late and sat at the back on the floor. In fact Joanna Brooks and I arrived at the same time and she also was at the back on the floor, leaning up against the wall. It was packed. I was also thrilled to have listened to Carol Lynn Pearson. She was fantastic. Hopefully they'll post her audio on Mormonstories also. One thing that stood out to me, is when she said, not her exact words btw, she said while sitting in sacrament she leaned over to someone, can't remember who, and said it pisses her off that the patriarchs in the church always produce the best men. IOW she thought despite some things she doesn't like that they do, they sure produce some amazing husbands, sons, brother's etc. Does that make sense? I think I'm doing a disservice by even mentioning this because it's out of context. But it stood out because I think the same thing.

I just barely listened to the podcast again because when I was at the symposium, I was barely awake because I didn't sleep the night before. Very good podcast! I wish you lived closer, it would have been fun to go together!

I would have loved to have gone! Sounds like it was amazing. I cried all the way through John's talk, just listening to the podcast. <sigh> He said so many things that were "exactly" my struggles with the church....and his hope for more inclusion of those who are "uncorrelated" is my hope, as well.

[wenglund]

Listened to this podcast of John Dehlin's, this morning, and have to say it made me very emotional, because I share so many of his concerns and struggles with the church. Very poignant (and I hope it is okay to post this here?). Tacenda, did you get to hear John's talk?

Why I Stay

http://mormonstories...lin-why-i-stay/

I enjoyed reading the text version of his talk, and I found a lot in it to be commended.

However, I was struck by how John's struggles seem to have so much to do with God (or beliefs about God) and the Church being so out of conformity with John's presumably modern and forward-thinking mind, and his hope that God and the Church would draw closer yo conforming to him; whereas, the Church is designed to do just the opposite--i.e. to conform man to God's image, rather than the other way around.

Evidently, John has constructed his own private test for God and the Church, not realizing that it is just the opposite.

To me, this is the classic struggle between pride and humility. If only he and others could figure out, in so many ways, that the struggles occur by turning from Christ to the natural man, and that those struggles may draw closer to an end by turning back to Christ. No man can serve two masters.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 30, 2012 by wenglund

[Libs]

Wade, I disagree, somewhat. I do believe pride can be a problem (it is a problem for all of us, at times), but I think if you "listen" to the podcast (John's voice), you will not find any pride, there. You will find great humility and real suffering. You will find humility in the very fact that he is still attending church and bringing his children there, despite the very great struggles he has with belief.

What I see, in John's struggle, and many others, is a conflict over moral issues/beliefs, to some degree. The church is not always correct in it's teachings (or actions); that can easily be shown, in that they have officially thrown some things out (like Adam-God, ban against racially mixed marriages, priesthood exclusion and much more) and even made some adjustments in the Temple rituals. Even Joseph Smith told us that not everything from the mouth of a prophet is from God. So, why the need to always believe the church is 100% correct, in order to be a fully accepted member? I think a lot of people disagree with the church on certain issues, but mostly just keep their mouth shut. Not all of us can do that, because it seems hypocritical.

Edited July 30, 2012 by Libs