Digging Into The Book Of Mormon

[ERayR]

Hmmm...I wonder if the students in Religion 122 are still getting this handout?

I don't see that it matters whether they are or not. The last time I looked Religion 122 was not where doctrine was determined. cinpro will you please let me know if that has changed?

[Bob Crockett]

The Church has taken an official position that the NY Hill Cumorah is the same as the Book of Mormon's Cumorah. I think that those who teach otherwise in a church setting have apostatized.

In the first quote below, Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith (at the time, President of the Q12, the Church Historian, the last GA to hold that position until Elder Marlin Jensen) points out that those who hold to the Mesoamerican view are weak in the faith. So it isn't like the Mesoamerican view has just crept in amongst the Brethren; they've discussed it and disposed of it.

Joseph Fielding Smith:

"LOCALE OF CUMORAH, RAMAH, AND RIPLIANCUM. This modernistic theory of necessity , in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon." -- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:233 (ed. McConkie). This was published in what would later become a Priesthood Manual. It is still in publication; the Deseret Book website lists it as "authoritative," and Doctrines of Salvation is one of the most frequently-cited GA treatises in General Conference.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and hear the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites called it), which hill is located between Palymra and Manchester . . . . Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many of the early brethren . . . have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah." (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed, 17 4.)

Elder Mark E. Peterson:

"As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New Y ork." -- Elder Mark E. Peterson, "The Last Words of Moroni." CR Oct. 197 8.

President Anthony Ivins (at the time, member of the FP), in his "we know positively" sermon. This is "official" as far as the church is concerned:

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was fromthis hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them." -- President Anthony Ivins, CR Apr. 1928. This address was Pres. Ivin's report to the Church about the purchase of the Hill Cumorah; thus, as the Church deliberated the purchase of Cumorah these discussions must have been had amongst the Brethren.

James E. Talmage:

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient people as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palymra in the State of New Y ork." (Articles of Fatih, p. 231 .) "The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the v icinity of the HIll Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York . . . ." (Articles of Faith, p. 235.)

Articles of Faith was pubilshed by the Church under the direction of the First Presidency, and the copyright has been held successively by Presidents of the Church. This, too, is "official."

Elder B.H. Roberts (Church Historian):

"Only three weeks ago, about now, I had the pleasure of standing upon the summit of the Hill Cumorah in company with President Grant. Being there upon that height of land, which so splendidly commands a view of the whole surrounding country, I could not refrain from recalling the time when Moroni stood upon the crown of that hill with the evidence of the ruins of the civilization of his people about him." -- Elder BH Roberts CR Oct. 1927 .

Orson Pratt:

"Cumorah, that being its ancient name . . . ." (JD 15:183.) April 6, 1874: "the Nephites, gathered their entire people aruond the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York . . . ."

Oliver Cowdery

"After describing the location of the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York, Oliver Cowdery writes in the Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835, 'At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed." (Messenger and Advocate, July, 1835.) The Messenger and Advocate was edited in part by Joseph Smith.

Oliver Cowdery also identifies the Hill Cumorah as being near the village of Palmyra, New York, in a speech he gave to the Delaware Indians about the Book of Mormon. (HC Vol. 1, Pg. 18).

Cowdery's pronouncements are very significant, in that they would have been reviewed and edited by the Prophet Joseph Smith. And, of course, if anybody would know about the doctrine of the Hill, it would be Oliver, who was there at the earliest dates in the history of the church.

Moses Thatcher, Nov. 11 , 1888:

"The signal stations of this retreating people can be traced through Central America, the heart of Mexico, crossing the Mississippi River, thence on across the Red River and up through Ohio, until the people made their weary march to the hill Cumorah, in the State of New Y ork, where 230,000 brave sould drew their last breath of life in one day ."

Encyclopedia of Mormonism's entry on Cumorah:

The entry on "Cumorah" says that Cumorah is the "hill and surrounding area where the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place." "Mormon . . . concealed the plates . . . in a hill called Cumorah . . . ." The annual pageant "has reinforced the common assumption that Moroni buried the plates of Mormon in the same hill where his father had buried the other plates, thus equating this New York hill with the Book of Mormon Cumorah. Because the New York site does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Book of Mormon geography, some Latter-day Saints have looked for . . . Mesoamerica." (Encyclopedia, p. 346.)

John L. Sorenson:

In 2010, when discussions were had on this subject, people familiar with Sorenson's Ensign article about Mesoamerica admitted and conceded that he was asked to delete from his article references to this theory that there are two Cumorahs. At least as the law might provide in terms of evidence, that is strong evidence indeed of an institutional belief contrary to Sorenson's.

It is Official Doctrine:

Is the above official doctrine? Yes, insofar as one understands the common English meaning of the phrase, "official doctrine." Pronouncements on the topic have come from the highest officials of the church, at official meetings organized for the purpose of instructing the Saints.

One way to test the claim of official doctrine is the examine "official" statements, of equal dignity, to the contrary. There aren't any; not even remotely so. So, for instance, prior to 1914, Church sermons were contradictory about the identification of Jehovah with Jesus Christ. Some authorities made the connection; others did not and were contrary. Until the First Presidency's Doctrinal Exposition on the Godhead, church "doctrine" was uncertain because of conflicting views. In the case of the Hill Cumorah, there are no conflicting statements.

It has been quoted to me various statements by General Authorities condemning speculation in Book of Mormon geography. However, these pronouncements, at least some of them, were made to fend off claims that there is more than one Cumorah.

[Waiting for the responses to describe the Hill as a "drumlin," when most 19th century LDS contemporary accounts describe it as a locally imposing hill.]

Edited July 17, 2012 by Bob Crockett

[livy111us]

I think that those who teach otherwise in a church setting have apostatized.

Wow...

[ERayR]

The Church has taken an official position that the NY Hill Cumorah is the same as the Book of Mormon's Cumorah. I think that those who teach otherwise in a church setting have apostatized.

In the first quote below, Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith (at the time, President of the Q12, the Church Historian, the last GA to hold that position until Elder Marlin Jensen) points out that those who hold to the Mesoamerican view are weak in the faith. So it isn't like the Mesoamerican view has just crept in amongst the Brethren; they've discussed it and disposed of it.

Joseph Fielding Smith:

"LOCALE OF CUMORAH, RAMAH, AND RIPLIANCUM. This modernistic theory of necessity , in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon." -- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:233 (ed. McConkie). This was published in what would later become a Priesthood Manual. It is still in publication; the Deseret Book website lists it as "authoritative," and Doctrines of Salvation is one of

the most frequently-cited GA treatises in General Conference.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and hear the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites called it), which hill is located between Palymra and Manchester . . . . Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many of the early brethren . . . have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah." (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed, 17 4.)

Elder Mark E. Peterson:

"As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New Y ork." -- Elder Mark E. Peterson, "The Last Words of Moroni." CR Oct. 197 8.

President Anthony Ivins (at the time, member of the FP), in his "we know positively" sermon. This is "official" as far as the church is concerned:

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was fromthis hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them." -- President Anthony Ivins, CR Apr. 1928. This address was Pres. Ivin's report to the Church about the purchase of the Hill Cumorah; thus, as the Church deliberated the purchase of Cumorah these discussions must have been had amongst the Brethren.

James E. Talmage:

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient people as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palymra in the State of New Y ork." (Articles of Fatih, p. 231 .) "The final struggles between Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the v icinity of the HIll Cumorah, in

what is now the State of New Y ork . . . ." (Articles of Faith, p. 235.)

Articles of Faith was pubilshed by the Church under the direction of the First Presidency, and the copyright has been held successively by Presidents of the Church. This, too, is "official."

Elder B.H. Roberts (Church Historian):

"Only three weeks ago, about now, I had the pleasure of standing upon the summit of the Hill Cumorah in company with President Grant. Being there upon that height of land, which so splendidly commands a view of the whole surrounding country, I could not refrain from recalling the time when Moroni stood upon the crown of that hill with the evidence of the ruins of the civilization of his people about him." -- Elder BH Roberts CR Oct. 1927 .

Orson Pratt:

Cumorah, that being its ancient name . . . ." (JD 15:183.) April 6, 1874: "the Nephites, gathered their entire people aruond the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York . . . ."

Moses Thatcher, Nov. 11 , 1888:

"The signal stations of this retreating people can be traced through Central America, the heart of Mexico, crossing the Mississippi River, thence on across the Red River and up through Ohio, until the people made their weary march to the hill Cumorah, in the State of New Y ork, where 230,000 brave sould drew their last breath of life in one day ."

Encyclopedia of Mormonism's entry on Cumorah:

The entry on "Cumorah" says that Cumorah is the "hill and surrounding area where the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place." "Mormon . . . concealed the plates . . . in a hill called Cumorah . . . ." The annual pageant "has reinforced the common assumption that Moroni buried the plates of Mormon in the same hill where his father had buried the other plates, thus equating this New York hill with the Book of Mormon Cumorah. Because the New York site does not readily fit the Book of Mormon description of Book of Mormon geography, some Latter-day Saints have looked for . . . Mesoamerica." (Encyclopedia, p. 346.)

John L. Sorenson:

In 2010, when discussions were had on this subject, people familiar with Sorenson's Ensign article about Mesoamerica admitted and conceded that he was asked to delete from his article references to this theory that there are two Cumorahs. At least as the law might provide in terms of evidence, that is strong evidence indeed of an institutional belief contrary to Sorenson's.

I haven't been asked to repent yet but then none of your sources have reached the level of being accepted as doctrine of the church. I am sure that each one of those thought that but it was never on such solid ground as to become canonized.

Edited July 17, 2012 by ERayR

[Bob Crockett]

Wow...

No big deal. I've heard it also said by people that Chocolate violates the Word of Wisdom, and I think they're in a state of apostasy.

[Bob Crockett]

I haven't been asked to repent yet but then none of your sources have reached the level of being accepted as doctrine of the church. I am sure that each one of those thought that but it was never on such solid ground as to become canonized.

Yes. They. Have.

[cursor]

John L. Sorenson:

In 2010, when discussions were had on this subject, people familiar with Sorenson's Ensign article about Mesoamerica admitted and conceded that he was asked to delete from his article references to this theory that there are two Cumorahs. At least as the law might provide in terms of evidence, that is strong evidence indeed of an institutional belief contrary to Sorenson's.

excuse me ...

What discussions?

What people?

If your allegations are true, how in heaven's name did the Digging into the Book of Mormon articles get printed and distributed to millions of members?

[Bob Crockett]

excuse me ...

What discussions?

What people?

If your allegations are true, how in heaven's name did the Digging into the Book of Mormon articles get printed and distributed to millions of members?

The material you quoted from me above answers your question. Material on Cumorah was deleted from that article before it was published. After that deletion it was acceptable for publication.

There's no big deal to taking exception to Ancient America Speaks. Your father is a world-class diffusionist, but as a Book of Mormon geographer he is no better than Rod Meldrum. It is all speculation, except for the Hill Cumorah.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Bob Crockett

[livy111us]

No big deal. I've heard it also said by people that Chocolate violates the Word of Wisdom, and I think they're in a state of apostasy.

It's alright. I think people who believe in more than one Springville are in apostasy. We all know there is only one, and it is next door to Shelbyville.

[cursor]

It sure sounds to me like the message is clearly conveyed that the final destruction (for both the Nephites and the Lamanites) did not occur in upstate NY. From the officially printed copy that I have in my possession I read,

A substantive discussion of geography cannot be given in these limited pages. However, for at least the past forty years, many students of the subject who have studied it in depth have reached similar basic conclusions: (1) the events reported by Nephite and Jaredite scribes evidently covered only a limited territory in the New World “land of promise,” and (2) there is presently known only one location in the Western Hemisphere that seems qualify as that scene.

These are very important points. For a long time, few people seemed to see any difficulty in setting the Book of Mormon in all of North and South America. The geography seemed so obvious—a continent northward and a continent southward, joined by a narrow isthmus. Eventually, however, accepting that view of the Book of Mormon lands became difficult in light of new information. For example, by the early twentieth-century, research had found that as many as 1,500 languages had been in use in the New World at the time of European discovery. And new knowledge about the process of language stability and change made it impossible to suppose that all those languages could have derived from the Hebrew presumed to be the speech of the Nephites and Lamanites. Archaeology also began revealing a bewildering diversity of cultures, reinforcing the idea that many groups had lived in the Americas.

As early as the turn of the century, a few Saints began to look more carefully at what the Book of Mormon itself said on this matter. They found statements there indicating that the scene for Jaredite and Nephite history was likely more limited than they had previously supposed. Then, in 1939, the Washburns published a detailed analysis of the geography in the Book of Mormon based strictly on its own statements and demonstrating the consistency of those statements. Since the publication of their work, An Approach to the Study of Book of Mormon Geography,analysts of the scripture have found still more data in the Book of Mormon’s own statements suggesting that the immediate land covered by the book’s events was probably only hundreds rather than thousands of miles long and wide.

On the basis of my own research, I conclude with others that only one area qualifies in all respects—Mesoamerica. This is the name given by researchers of American civilizations to that portion of central and southern Mexico and northern Central America where the highest level of ancient cultural development in the hemisphere occurred. For example, the scripture says much about a long tradition of written records in Nephite-Jaredite territory. In Mesoamerica, over a dozen writing systems are known, some of which extend back, on resent evidence, to at least the beginning of the first millennium B.C. Yet nowhere else in all the Americas do we presently have reliable evidence that a genuine system of writing and a tradition of books existed before the arrival of the Europeans in the sixteenth century. Also, we can identify in Mesoamerica almost all of the kinds of geographical and cultural features specified by the Book of Mormon—the presence (and absence) in particular relationships of mountains, basins, rivers, “waters,” passes, “ups,” “downs,” “overs,” ruined sites with dating that coincides with the scripture, and so forth.

Of course, placing the Book of Mormon lands within a limited region like Mesoamerica requires that we take a fresh look at some of the long-standing questions that have been of interest to Book of Mormon readers. For example, how did the plates of Nephi get from the final battlefield near the “narrow neck of land” to where Joseph Smith obtained them in New York?

Here the Book of Mormon sheds no light. One obvious possibility is that Moroni himself may have carried the records to New York during his thirty-six years of wandering between the extermination of the Nephites and when he last wrote on the plates. (See Morm. 6:6;Moro. 1:1–4; Moro. 10:1.) Or he may have taken them there as a resurrected being. We only know that, whatever the means, in 1827 the plates were in the “hill of considerable size” near young Joseph Smith’s home at Palmyra, New York, where Moroni delivered the sacred record to him.

[emphasis mine]

Edited July 17, 2012 by cursor

[cursor]

If you like, I can supply you, Bob, with a scanned (from the 1984 original) copy of that Ensign article.

[cursor]

I've scanned the first installment of my father's Ensign article "Digging into the Book of Mormon." Feel free to download a copy for yourself. Be pre-warned ... it's 15+MB. (Reducing the resolution dramatically reduced the readability.)

http://www.JohnLSorenson.com/docs/DiggingIntoTheBookOfMormon_Ensign.pdf

I'm currently in the process, by the way, of digitally capturing and organizing my father's life works. It will, in relatively short order, be available at JohnLSorenson.com.

[cursor]

Note, Bob, that the same content is available at LDS.org. Check the links in the opening post.

[livy111us]

Can't wait until you are done with that website. It looks like it will be a *great* resource!

[cursor]

Additional maps (that we're currently developing) will also be available. I also want to experiment with ways in which animation and 3D geographical models (and combinations of the two) can significantly illuminate the reality of the Book of Mormon events. Just the other day I shared with my father a (to scale) 3D terrain image/map (not yet animated) that clearly illustrated the vantage point of the Nephite scouts that were sent to follow the Amlicites, then discovered that they'd hooked up with the Lamanites, and were headed toward Zarahemla (Alma 2:21-25). The path is crystal clear, the vantage point is the is obvious ... I can see the nighttime camp fires of the approaching Amlicites/Lamanites as they approach down the river Sidon in my mind's eye as I type. I AM one of the scouts.

Google Earth it: 16.038119°,-92.022695°

[cursor]

"Do you read the Scriptures, my brethren and sisters, as though you were writing them a thousand, two thousand, or five thousand years ago? Do you read them as though you stood in the place of the men who wrote them? If you do not feel thus, it is your privilege to do so ..."

—Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 128

Knowing where any series of events took place serves to significantly amplify one's perspective and vision. Visual aids that contribute to that historical clarity are, well, pretty much priceless.

[cursor]

Your father is a world-class diffusionist, but as a Book of Mormon geographer he is no better than Rod Meldrum. It is all speculation, except for the Hill Cumorah.

You're right, "world-class diffusionist" he is. The second part of your statement is fairly laughable, frankly.

[Bob Crockett]

You're right, "world-class diffusionist" he is. The second part of your statement is fairly laughable, frankly.

It is all a matter of opinion as to whom is better. It is like arguing whether Milton's or Shakespeare's stories more accurately reflect events.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Bob Crockett

[KevinG]

No big deal. I've heard it also said by people that Chocolate violates the Word of Wisdom, and I think they're in a state of apostasy.

Of course that is silly. The Word of Wisdom is what the least of the Saints can bear. Many Saints would not be able to give up chocolate. Relief Society alone would be decimated!

[cdowis]

The Church has taken an official position that the NY Hill Cumorah is the same as the Book of Mormon's Cumorah. I think that those who teach otherwise in a church setting have apostatized.

In the first quote below, Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith (at the time, President of the Q12, the Church Historian, the last GA to hold that position until Elder Marlin Jensen) points out that those who hold to the Mesoamerican view are weak in the faith. So it isn't like the Mesoamerican view has just crept in amongst the Brethren; they've discussed it and disposed of it.

This has been extensively discussed in other threads. May I suggest that you review those threads before making a complete dufus of yourself.

Specifically, I suspect that we can find somewhere a statement by some GA which says that those who think BOM geography is doctrine (like tithing, baptism, repentance, etc.) are weak in the faith and fall into the same category of those gospel hobbies where eating chocolate cake or a ham sandwich indicate a weak testimony by violating the WOW.

BOM geography is not a doctrinal issue, but one subject to research and intelligent discourse, rather than dogmatic statements questioning the faith of those who disagree with you.

Those whom you quote make no claim to any personal knowledge or revelation regarding BOM geography. They possess no more information than is available to any member of the church, including those on this forum. You have your opinion, and quoting GA gives it no more credence than for us to quote the BOM itself.

Edited July 18, 2012 by cdowis

[Bob Crockett]

It is doctrine. We have hymns and scripture on the topic of Cumorah. We had an entire General Conference dedicated to the purchase of the Hill Cumorah. I may be mistaken but I believe the conference occurred at the foot of the monument.

We have many general authorities who have declared it from the general conference pulpit. In a revealed religion, an appeal to the authority of the Twelve and the FP is an appeal to the source of ultimate truth beyond personal revelation. Not an appeal to science.

It is doctrine because it is official.

It is doctrine because a priesthood manual has Pres. Smith condemning the teaching of two Cumorahs and declaring that those who teach it are weak in the faith. A manual still in publication and heavily cited in General Conference.

It is doctrine because there is no countervailing General Conference sermon or Church publication.

Finally, it is true doctrine because those who believe it are persecuted for it. (The last is a little tongue in cheek. Sorry. I couldn't resist. I may think that teaching two Cumorahs in church is to teach apostasy but I won't accuse you of a low IQ!)

Edited July 18, 2012 by Bob Crockett

[ERayR]

It is doctrine. We have hymns and scripture on the topic of Cumorah. We had an entire General Conference dedicated to the purchase of the Hill Cumorah. I may be mistaken but I believe the conference occurred at the foot of the monument.

We have many general authorities who have declared it from the general conference pulpit. In a revealed religion, an appeal to the authority of the Twelve and the FP is an appeal to the source of ultimate truth beyond personal revelation. Not an appeal to science.

It is doctrine because it is official.

It is doctrine because a priesthood manual has Pres. Smith condemning the teaching of two Cumorahs and declaring that those who teach it are weak in the faith. A manual still in publication and heavily cited in General Conference.

It is doctrine because there is no countervailing General Conference sermon or Church publication.

Finally, it is true doctrine because those who believe it are persecuted for it. (The last is a little tongue in cheek. Sorry. I couldn't resist. I may think that teaching two Cumorahs in church is to teach apostasy but I won't accuse you of a low IQ!)

Would it shake your faith if you found out you were wrong?

[Bob Crockett]

Would it shake your faith if you found out you were wrong?

Name one general authority who has gone on record agreeing with you.

[ERayR]

Name one general authority who has gone on record agreeing with you.

Answer the question.

[mfbukowski]

It is doctrine. We have hymns and scripture on the topic of Cumorah. We had an entire General Conference dedicated to the purchase of the Hill Cumorah. I may be mistaken but I believe the conference occurred at the foot of the monument.

We have many general authorities who have declared it from the general conference pulpit. In a revealed religion, an appeal to the authority of the Twelve and the FP is an appeal to the source of ultimate truth beyond personal revelation. Not an appeal to science.

It is doctrine because it is official.

It is doctrine because a priesthood manual has Pres. Smith condemning the teaching of two Cumorahs and declaring that those who teach it are weak in the faith. A manual still in publication and heavily cited in General Conference.

It is doctrine because there is no countervailing General Conference sermon or Church publication.

Finally, it is true doctrine because those who believe it are persecuted for it. (The last is a little tongue in cheek. Sorry. I couldn't resist. I may think that teaching two Cumorahs in church is to teach apostasy but I won't accuse you of a low IQ!)

Perhaps you have not seen the discussions we have had here concerning what constitutes "doctrine".

It is clearly a debatable point and obviously many of the kinds of sources you cite contradict each other. Are you saying that there are no Conference sermons which contradict each other?