Mormon Theology And Yahweh

[Elder Chantdown]

You know that "Head, Shoulders, Knees & Toes" song we would sing as kids in primary? Did you know that the "Eyes, Eats, Mouth & Nose" part at the end corresponds directly to the Yod Heh Vau Heh of YHWH according to ancient Kabbalah tradition? Check it out. Oh and the name Yahweh comes from the sound of ancient planetary feedback. Fascinating!

http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/making-sense-of-it-all-pt-1/

http://ldsanarchy.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/the-name-of-god/

[inquiringmind]

In the OP, Valentinus said that we know from the Temple that the "J" form of the Divine name is a corruption of the "Y" form.

Does that mean the "Y" form is used in the Temple?

If it is, does that practice go back to Joseph Smith's lifetime?

I ask because I was under the impression that scholars only came to the conclusion that the "J" form was a corruption around the turn of the twentieth century.

Did the Mormon Temple have it right all along?

[USU78]

In the OP, Valentinus said that we know from the Temple that the "J" form of the Divine name is a corruption of the "Y" form.

Does that mean the "Y" form is used in the Temple?

If it is, does that practice go back to Joseph Smith's lifetime?

I ask because I was under the impression that scholars only came to the conclusion that the "J" form was a corruption around the turn of the twentieth century.

Did the Mormon Temple have it right all along?

Jehovah is a deliberately distorted approximation of the Divine Name, spelled JHVH/JHWH, never with vowels, both because Hebrew anciently had none to speak of and in order to preserve the sanctity of the Name. The "J" is simply the consonantal form of the letter "I," and is a fairly recent invention. Jehovah was formed by adding vowels to the Name, but not the ones most probably incorporated in the name in its proper pronunciation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

You'll notice that it appears the Name was pronounced [at least properly] only once a year, by the High Priest, in the Temple, within the Holy of Holies, on the Day of Atonement.

[Robert F. Smith]

In 3 Nephi 20:23, Jesus tells the assembled multitude at Bountiful: "Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord [YHWH] your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people." Jesus says he was raised up as a prophet like unto Moses by YHWH.

Jesus goes on to identify "the Father" as YHWH who covenanted with Abraham in Genesis (see vv. 25-27). When he quotes Isaiah 52:9–10, he substitutes "the Father" for YHWH in every case: "Then shall they break forth into joy—Sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Father [isaiah: "YHWH"] hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. The Father [isaiah: "YHWH"] hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father [isaiah: "YHWH"]" (vv. 34–35). He follows this by stating "the Father and I are one"—but that hardly clears things up.

On the face of it, these verses seem to equate the Father with YHWH. Although Jesus says he is "one" with the Father, he also distinguishes between himself and the Father ("the Father having raised me up unto you first, and sent me to bless you..." [v. 26]). Presumably if the Father/YHWH "raised up" Jesus and "sent him," then Jesus is not YHWH.

All these terms are descriptive epithets rather than names in the hard sense. The Tetragrammaton YHWH / Yahwe means "He who causes that which comes into existence."¹ The reason that the 1611 KJV reads "LORD" in such cases is because pious Jews substituted Hebrew 'Adonai "My Lords" whenever they saw the Tetragrammaton in Holy Writ and the KJV translators followed suit. The OT Greek (LXX) reads Kyrios "Lord" in such cases because it was a Jewish translation, and this continues in the New Testament.

In one place in Isaiah 52-9-12, which you refer to,one Qumran Hebrew Isaiah scroll reads "our God," so the confusion is wider than apparent on the surface. Whether the Egyptian used on the Brass Plates and in the Plates of Mormon and on the Small Plates of Nephi merely transliterated Hebrew terms or substituted Egyptian terms is unknown.

¹ W. F. Albright, Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan: A Historical Analysis of Two Contrasting Faiths (London, 1968), 147-149, nn. 44-52; Albright, From the Stone Age to Christianity (1957), 15-16; R. N. Holzapfel, D. M. Pike, and D. R. Seely, Jehovah and the World of the Old Testament (SLC: Deseret Book, 2009), 16-17.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Jehovah is a deliberately distorted approximation of the Divine Name, spelled JHVH/JHWH, never with vowels, both because Hebrew anciently had none to speak of and in order to preserve the sanctity of the Name.

Not speaking the name seems to start in the intertestamental period. There is nothing to suggest that earlier (before the exile) the name had these restrictions placed on it.

[teddyaware]

It's always wise to define terms as a starting point in discussions like this one. It is said that the name Jehova in Hebrew means, more or less, the eternal, unchanging God. So the name Jehova (Yaweh) might be said to be a title of description that can refer to either the Father or the Son. Perhaps this is why Hebrews 13:8 declares, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever."

It cannot be denied that though Jehova most often refers to Christ, there are some verses of scripture where the Father seems to hold that title as well. A good case in point being Psalms 110:1, "The LORD (Jehova) said unto my Lord (Jesus Christ the Son), sit thou at my right hand, until I make all thine enemies thy footstool."

Keeping in mind that the name Jehova is as much a descriptive title as it is a proper name can help one to avoid befuddlement and perplexity. Interestingly, each person who's baptized into the Church takes upon him or herself the name of Jesus Christ. In accord with this Mosiah 5:8-12 says:

"8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.

10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God.

11 And I would that ye should remember also, that this is the name that I said I should give unto you that never should be blotted out, except it be through transgression; therefore, take heed that ye do not transgress, that the name be not blotted out of your hearts.

12I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retainthe name written always in your hearts, that ye are not found on the left hand of God, but that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you.

Unless I'm incorrect, the plain meaning of the previous verses indicates that at some future time the Lord will, literally, call and refer to us as 'Jesus Christ,' strange to our eyes and ears as this now might seem! And so we see a pattern -- God is willing to share with man not only the fulness of his power and glory, but also his names as well. The prototype or model for this kind of relationship is found in the infinite and eternal union of the Father and the Son, wherein names and titles often become interchangable..

[USU78]

Not speaking the name seems to start in the intertestamental period. There is nothing to suggest that earlier (before the exile) the name had these restrictions placed on it.

Then why the word game Moses was instructed to play in Exodus: "Tell them 'I AM hath sent unto you.'"?

Exodus 3:13-14: And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? ^awhat shall I say unto the And God said unto Moses, ^aI Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

Edited August 8, 2012 by USU78

[Benjamin McGuire]

Then why the word game Moses was instructed to play in Exodus: "Tell them 'I AM hath sent unto you.'"?

What does this have to do with not speaking the name?

Ben M.

[USU78]

What does this have to do with not speaking the name?

Ben M.

The pronunciation of "I AM" approximates, but does not = Yahweh . . . much like modern Jews will spell the name of Diety with an extra "e," Eloheim, in order to avoid spelling out that divine title. Linkee: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/YHVH/yhvh.html

My own theory is that the near absolute ban on pronouncing the name, which you are correct in saying occurred after the return from Babylon at some point or other, is an attempt to live a rule implicit in that wordplay: Yahweh/Ehyeh ~ Elohim/Eloheim

[Cobalt-70]

As it stands now, there is a 1915 First Presidency statement that links Jesus with Jehovah (YHWH). But that is the first time a distinct linkage was made, and neither Joseph Smith nor Brigham Young made that linkage, except to the extent that in the earliest Mormon theology (i.e., the 1820s and 30s), the Father and the Son were one being, and possibly even one person, and both of them were called Jehovah.

Although Brigham Young was not careful to always distinguish between the names of the gods in his pantheon, Brigham Young understood that the three temple gods, Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael, formed a First Presidency, and that the Father (i.e., Michael/Adam), Son, and Holy Ghost formed a different First Presidency. Apparently, Jehovah was a higher god than Michael, who was a superior god to, and the father of, Jesus. So the temple Jehovah is, in this view, neither God the Father nor Jesus. But it appears he believed that the YHWH of the Old Testament was the temple Michael, not, apparently, the temple Jehovah. This is, as I understand it, still the view of many, or even most, Mormon fundamentalists.

https://www.sunstone...s/044-36-44.pdf

Edited August 9, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Benjamin McGuire]

much like modern Jews will spell the name of Diety with an extra "e," Eloheim, in order to avoid spelling out that divine title.

I don't know where this comes from - but its not right. The two most common spellings are elohim and eloheem - the difference between the two is that the first is Ashkenazic transliteration (and pronunciation), and the second is Sephardic. Eloheim is a variant of the Sephardic spelling. Early LDS used both Sephardic spellings - they didn't adopt the Ashkenazic spelling (and pronunciation) in any significant fashion until after Talmage started using it.

My own theory is that the near absolute ban on pronouncing the name, which you are correct in saying occurred after the return from Babylon at some point or other, is an attempt to live a rule implicit in that wordplay: Yahweh/Ehyeh ~ Elohim/Eloheim

As opposed to say, Ruth 2:4 -

And, behold, Boaz came from Beth-lehem, and said unto the reapers, The Lord (YHWH) be with you. And they answered him, The Lord (YHWH) bless thee.

If there was such an implicit rule, it was something that was interpreted into texts like that, and not actually present in them.

Ben M.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Benjamin McGuire

[USU78]

I don't know where this comes from - but its not right. The two most common spellings are elohim and eloheem - the difference between the two is that the first is Ashkenazic transliteration (and pronunciation), and the second is Sephardic. Eloheim is a variant of the Sephardic spelling. Early LDS used both Sephardic spellings - they didn't adopt the Ashkenazic spelling (and pronunciation) in any significant fashion until after Talmage started using it.

As opposed to say, Ruth 2:4 -

And, behold, Boaz came from Beth-lehem, and said unto the reapers, The Lord (YHWH) be with you. And they answered him, The Lord (YHWH) bless thee.

If there was such an implicit rule, it was something that was interpreted into texts like that, and not actually present in them.

Ben M.

Come on, Ben . . . play with me . . .

[Robert F. Smith]

Then why the word game Moses was instructed to play in Exodus: "Tell them 'I AM hath sent unto you.'"?

It isn't a word game at all. Hebrew 'ehye which is translated in the KJV as "I AM" (Ex 3:14, John 8:58), actually means "I am he who causes to come into existence," the first person singular of the verb which we usually see in the third person, Yahwe / JEHOVAH (Ex 6:3), which means "He who causes to come into existence." It may not make sense in English, but Moses and God weren't speaking English, and the KJV translators weren't up on their Hebrew.

[Robert F. Smith]

In 3 Nephi 20:23, Jesus tells the assembled multitude at Bountiful: "Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord [YHWH] your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people." Jesus says he was raised up as a prophet like unto Moses by YHWH.

Jesus goes on to identify "the Father" as YHWH who covenanted with Abraham in Genesis (see vv. 25-27). When he quotes Isaiah 52:9–10, he substitutes "the Father" for YHWH in every case: "Then shall they break forth into joy—Sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Father [isaiah: "YHWH"] hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. The Father [isaiah: "YHWH"] hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father [isaiah: "YHWH"]" (vv. 34–35). He follows this by stating "the Father and I are one"—but that hardly clears things up.

On the face of it, these verses seem to equate the Father with YHWH. Although Jesus says he is "one" with the Father, he also distinguishes between himself and the Father ("the Father having raised me up unto you first, and sent me to bless you..." [v. 26]). Presumably if the Father/YHWH "raised up" Jesus and "sent him," then Jesus is not YHWH.

The Brass Plates was likely an Elohistic documentary source (E) from the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Book of Mormon even follows this same Elohistic emphasis, http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V10N04_33.pdf . Jehovah is emphasized in the Yahwistic documentary source (J) of the OT, although other sources are combined in that Old Testament. This may explain some of the phenomena which you describe.

[Robert F. Smith]

Three questions.

1.) Is the Temple ritual as inspired as the standard works?

2,) What do Mormons take the name to mean?

3.) If the translation of the BOM (The JST, and The Pearl of Great Price) is inspired, shouldn't Joseph have gotten the divine name right?

Usage of such terms varies widely within the Bible, and it would be odd and unaccountable if that variation did not continue in other parts of Holy Writ.

[Cobalt-70]

It isn't a word game at all. Hebrew 'ehye which is translated in the KJV as "I AM" (Ex 3:14, John 8:58), actually means "I am he who causes to come into existence," the first person singular of the verb which we usually see in the third person, Yahwe / JEHOVAH (Ex 6:3), which means "He who causes to come into existence." It may not make sense in English, but Moses and God weren't speaking English, and the KJV translators weren't up on their Hebrew.

I don't think many scholars would agree with your translation of אֶהְיֶה ("ehyeh"). It means either "I am" or "I will be." I don't know how you get that huge phrase out of one little word.

[Cobalt-70]

The Brass Plates was likely an Elohistic documentary source (E) from the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Book of Mormon even follows this same Elohistic emphasis, http://www.dialoguej...e_V10N04_33.pdf . Jehovah is emphasized in the Yahwistic documentary source (J) of the OT, although other sources are combined in that Old Testament. This may explain some of the phenomena which you describe.

With due respect to Sorensen, I think his hypothesis that the Brass Plates is, or is related to, the Elohist source is something he just threw out there without much critical thought, and without any real substantive support. I can't imagine that he didn't realize that an Elohist source would certainly not describe itself as a "record of the Jews." He also pretty much ignores the J and P elements of the Book of Mormon, such as reference to the brazen serpent, the story of Cain and Abel, use of the term "Sinai" rather than "Horeb," etc. Plus, surely Sorenson was aware that the Book of Mormon claimed that the brass plates contained all five books of the Torah, including Deuteronomy and Leviticus, which were D and P sources, not E (we'll set aside the problem that Leviticus was not composed until well after 600 BC).