Joseph Smith And Polygamy

[Calm]

Polygamy is when the man takes on a second wife.

Polygyny.....

[ERayR]

The Bishop gained his knowledge through the correlated lessons that are presented in Sunday School, Priesthood, Relief Society, and Seminary. It appears you are stating that if a person gains his knowledge of the Church through these official lessons, there is no reason to think he would actually know anything about Joseph's multiple wives. This being the case, the church is definately presenting the information in a way to make it appear other than what it is, and by the Church's own definition, it is therefore lying

Please don't attribute meanings to my words that are not there.Read my words for what they are and DO NOT project your own prejudices onto them. Also I doubt that you know where the bishop gained his knowledge. That too is another case of projection.

[Calm]

I didn't get seminary either.

I see how you might not have learned about it earlier but I still do not understand why it should affect you so adversely. I presume it is because you are looking and judging through the modern lens which has denigrated and demonized polygamous unions. It helps to get a 19th century perspective. I may have an advantage on you there because of my great age and connection to grandparents who were born more than a century ago. I understand young brides. Even when I grew up it was not uncommon. In fact I was married at 18 and my wife was even younger. In the 19th century young brides often married older men because they had the means to care for the needs of a family. In reading histories I often find an older man widowed by a wife dying in childbirth taking a young wife. Not uncommon. Try looking at through a different perspective than that of a dirty old man perspective. Understand the time.

I understand that all polygamous marriages were not harmonious and ideal. I also know that monogamous marriages are not always harmonious and ideal.

The ages of Joseph Smith's wives fall within the norm for his society. What was abnormal is they were polygynous and polyandrous relationships. There is a FAIR article comparing actual ages of women at the time of first marriages with the ages of their husbands and Joseph Smith's sealings if anyone is interested. Edited July 5, 2012 by calmoriah

[Closet Doubter]

And yet, it is on the church's website as I pointed out. But you chose to ignore the lds.org link. Why?`

Where is the lie if lds.org clearly states it? And this brings up an interesting question. When and where should the lds church introduce polygamy to make you happy?

How about in the correlated lessons presented in Sunday School, Priesthood, Relief Society, and Seminary since this is where about 95% of the membership in the church gain their knowledge. Instead, the Church leadership decides to place the information in a place that only a small percentage of the church membership look so that people such as yourself can say "see, they don't hide it, it is right where you can find it if you know how to look for it".

I guess you are correct though, the LDS.org website isn't lying because it presents the information. The correlated lessons of priesthood, relief society, sunday school, and seminary that selectively leave out information in a way to portray the situation other than what is was, are the only ones lying based on the Church's defination from lesson 31 of gospel principals.

By the way, my old Bishop finally looked on the FARMS website (whatever it is now called) and found their response to Compton's book and gained some knowledge about Joseph's marriages but only after I blew up and told my son that I was going to have a talk with the bishop about his lying and my son gave the bishop a heads up.

[treehugger]

The old adage: If you want to hide something well do it in plain sight.

When did Joseph or anyone else during the time of Joseph hide it in plain sight. If i am not mistaken Joseph flatly denied his polygamist marriages - and I believe whyme provided a reason jospeh did deny them. Also was polygamy part of the Navuoo Expositors publication - if I am not mistaken again the expositor was detroyed.

So I ask again prior to the link provided in the OP, where did members of the lds Church learn in Official Church publications about Jospeh smith polygamist marriages to teenagers and other men's wives

[Jaybear]

The ages of Joseph Smith's wives fall within the norm for his society. What was abnormal is they were polygynous and polyandrous relationships. There is a FAIR article comparing actual ages of women at the time of first marriages with the ages of their husbands and Joseph Smith's sealings if anyone is interested.

What was the median age for women to marry in the 1830s.

[sjdawg]

What was the median age for women to marry in the 1830s.

What was the median number of wives for a man to have in the 1830s?

Edited July 5, 2012 by sjdawg

[Darren10]

What was the median age for women to marry in the 1830s.

I think Thomas Edison was around 30 when he married his 16 year old wife. I also think the legal age to marry in Delaware during Joseph Smith's time was 13. Or, perhaps, I just read too many FAIR articles. ; )

[Darren10]

What was the median number of wives for a man to have in the 1830s?

Depends on which politician you look at.

[ERayR]

When did Joseph or anyone else during the time of Joseph hide it in plain sight. If i am not mistaken Joseph flatly denied his polygamist marriages - and I believe whyme provided a reason jospeh did deny them. Also was polygamy part of the Navuoo Expositors publication - if I am not mistaken again the expositor was detroyed.

So I ask again prior to the link provided in the OP, where did members of the lds Church learn in Official Church publications about Jospeh smith polygamist marriages to teenagers and other men's wives

A prime case of applying my words for a purpose not intended. They were directed at the claim that the church hides its history, specifically the history of polygamy. It has been demonstrated numerous times that this is not so. In fact the revelation of all this great knowledge invariably comes from church sources.

The sealings to teenagers has been covered in this very thread. So pickup your buzz words and back out or else give some indication you are engaging in the conversation and I am not talking to the wall.

[sjdawg]

Depends on which politician you look at.

lol...Thanks for that!

[sjdawg]

So pickup your buzz words and back out or else give some indication you are engaging in the conversation and I am not talking to the wall.

Friendly!!

[ERayR]

What was the median number of wives for a man to have in the 1830s?

Due to the harsh circumstances of frontier America and the toll it took on the woman especially because of child birth it was more than one.

[Darren10]

The ages of Joseph Smith's wives fall within the norm for his society. What was abnormal is they were polygynous and polyandrous relationships. There is a FAIR article comparing actual ages of women at the time of first marriages with the ages of their husbands and Joseph Smith's sealings if anyone is interested.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Marriages_to_young_women

That should help.

[ERayR]

Friendly!!

After talking to the wall for so long I can be quite short with deliberate ignorance. If that was not the case apologies.

[Nevo]

So I ask again prior to the link provided in the OP, where did members of the lds Church learn in Official Church publications about Joseph smith polygamist marriages to teenagers and other men's wives

Why me's link doesn't actually say anything about Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages to teenagers or other men's wives. And that web page has only been in existence for a little over a year and a half. As far as I know, the first quasi-official Church acknowledgment of Joseph Smith's polyandrous relationships was in the Introduction to volume 2 of Joseph Smith's journals, published by the Church Historian's Press in November 2011.

In my nearly four decades of church attendance, including four years of seminary, a full-time mission, and another four years of institute, I've never heard a word spoken in church about Joseph Smith's plural marriages—not the slightest acknowledgment over the pulpit or even in the classroom. So I am not at all surprised that most members are in the dark about Joseph's practice of polygamy.

[treehugger]

A prime case of applying my words for a purpose not intended. They were directed at the claim that the church hides its history, specifically the history of polygamy. It has been demonstrated numerous times that this is not so. In fact the revelation of all this great knowledge invariably comes from church sources.

The sealings to teenagers has been covered in this very thread. So pickup your buzz words and back out or else give some indication you are engaging in the conversation and I am not talking to the wall.

The Scriptures do not provide evidence that Joseph Smith entered polygamists marriages with women whose husbands were still living and to whom the women were still married.

The polygamists marriages to teenagers are also not provided for in the scriptures.

But I understand where Tss, keving, calmoriah and you are coming from....because I have read section 132, Nathans condemnation of David, Jacobs condemnation of plural marriage, then I should have known Joseph smith was a polygamist and he married women who already had legal husbands.

[Calm]

http://en.fairmormon..._to_young_women

That should help.

Thank you for doing my work for me.

[sjdawg]

Due to the harsh circumstances of frontier America and the toll it took on the woman especially because of child birth it was more than one.

What was the median number of wives for a man in the 1830s to have at one time? What was the median number of husbands for a woman in the 1830s to have at one time?

Edited July 5, 2012 by sjdawg

[Calm]

The Scriptures do not provide evidence that Joseph Smith entered polygamists marriages with women whose husbands were still living and to whom the women were still married.

I never said they did. I have always limited my remarks to simply stating the scriptures demonstrate polygynous marriages (though sometime I use plural marriage as the term preferred by the Church or polygamous marriage because I am not being as careful as I should be.

How do you see suggesting that people are saying something they are not as advancing the conversation/problem in any way?

[Calm]

What was the median number of wives for a man in the 1830s to have at one time? What was the median number of husbands for a woman in the 1830s to have at one time?

As I stated the abnormal aspect of Joseph Smith's marriages is the polygamous nature of them. Has anyone stated differently?

[Darren10]

What does it matter if Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young is ever mentioned in Relief Society? She was the third president. Presumably she is somewhat known and occasionally mentioned. Chances are there's even a picture of her in the Relief Society room. I'm saying that her polyandrous relationship with Joseph Smith is likely never discussed in Relief Society.

As I've asked before, to what end would the LDS church achieve by discussing her polyandaring with Brigham Young? All I can foresee is confusion, rumors, and more fuel for the critics. "Even in the LDS church's Relife Society's meetings one can hear of Zina Jacob's polyandering with the prophet of the Church and yet they do not condemn this form of adultery. They are hypocrites..." just stick with her remarkable achievements.

Uh huh. So you don't find Henry Jacobs's plight even a little bit tragic?

sure I do. All maritial separations are tragic but the tragedy isn't nearly as horrific as critics proclaim. For a) the Jacob's separateion was of mutual consent, NOT COORSION; b) Zina lived with no other man than Henry until after henry left her and remarried and c) nobody at that time had access to the internet and al the free online games. (OK, "c)" was intentionally facetious).

Well, Joseph did propose to Orson Hyde's wife while Hyde was off dedicating Jerusalem for the gathering of the Jews.

And if you want to tell that story, please do.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Darren10

[Darren10]

Thank you for doing my work for me.

We'll discuss my legal fees at a later time.

[ERayR]

The Scriptures do not provide evidence that Joseph Smith entered polygamists marriages with women whose husbands were still living and to whom the women were still married.

The polygamists marriages to teenagers are also not provided for in the scriptures.

But I understand where Tss, keving, calmoriah and you are coming from....because I have read section 132, Nathans condemnation of David, Jacobs condemnation of plural marriage, then I should have known Joseph smith was a polygamist and he married women who already had legal husbands.

Again another misreading of what I wrote. I said nothing about scriptures I said church sources. Let your imagination loose. There are church sources other than scripture.

[ERayR]

What was the median number of wives for a man in the 1830s to have at one time? What was the median number of husbands for a woman in the 1830s to have at one time?

Edited July 5, 2012 by ERayR