Creator or Creators

[Alexander]

And JESUS said unto them WHAT??? after this explanation of how he fits into One of the Trinity Models/Forms.

LOL Tanyan

That's a classic

[Tanyan]

Steam Divides from the Water, Ice, into the air, sorry it doesn't stick around !, no longer thermodynamicly Together it becomes panthiestic with all other elements.

[Tanyan]

Hey Alexander, that is a partial quote from Barry Bickmores Site on his Trinity Joke. But Perhaps you can put together one using FiatLux Trinity explanation with my last post. Give it a try !. I must Leave, E-Mail me what you come up with. Grace and Peace.

[Fiat Lux]

Steam Divides from the Water, Ice, into the air, sorry it doesn't stick around !, no longer thermodynamicly Together it becomes panthiestic with all other elements.

Nope, not at the triple point. All three states are there, indefinitely transitioning, independent of time.

[Fiat Lux]

Hey Alexander, that is a partial quote from Barry Bickmores Site on his Trinity Joke. But Perhaps you can put together one using FiatLux Trinity explanation with my last post. Give it a try !. I must Leave, E-Mail me what you come up with. Grace and Peace.

Yes, making a joke is always a good cover when you have nothing constructive to say. I can't wait to hear it!

I can't take credit for the illustration though... I'm not a chemist.

[Alexander]

Fiat Lux wrote:

The three divine persons of the trinity are one in substance. One in esssence. Like the water in the triple point example.

**

Do you mean to say that they are made of the same thing? Like I am made of the same material as any other human being?

I think I am misinterpreting you as if this was the case there would be no need to make reference to molecules under extreme conditions to describe it.

Fiat Lux wrote:

I don't think anybody ever said the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One Molecule.

**

The point was that water does not exist in three forms simotaniously. The triple point phenomenon is a point in which three states of matter can exist within the same system.

Fiat Lux wrote:

The three divine persons of the trinity are not three separate persons mechanically put together into one Godhead (like the LDS model) or a trimodality.

**

I think you are mistaken, the LDS model is not a Siamese twins model.

Fiat Lux wrote:

They are one substance in three persons who are separate and distinct, yet their substance cannot be divided. Similarly, at the triple point, we see three separate and distinct phases (liquid, solid and vapor) of the same one substance (water) which are thermodynamically locked together. There can be no individual manifestation of any one of the states without destruction of the triple point. One substance in three separate and distinct states, yet the substance cannot be divided.

**

The way I am understanding what you are saying is hard to connect to the triple point phenomenon. If all the molecules in the liquid form at a particular instant of time were moved (Jesus coming to earth) the system would automatically rebalance itself in the exact same liquid to gas to solid ratio.

How is this not division of the substance?

If you say

[LDS4EVER]

All this discussion doesn't change the fact that:

1) the bible declares that Jesus is God and my definition of God is moot because it's the bible making that declaration,

2) trinitarians can't agree on whether Jesus is God. One says he is and the other says he isn't and Johnny can't decide which it is.

[Fiat Lux]

Do you mean to say that they are made of the same thing?  Like I am made of the same material as any other human being?

I think I am misinterpreting you as if this was the case there would be no need to make reference to molecules under extreme conditions to describe it.

Hmm... no, not the same. They are separate and distinct divine persons of one undivided substance. You and I are of the same substance in a general sense, but biologically/chemically/substantively different in many ways, and also completely independent of one another. Not so with the trinity. Thus the need for the triple point.

The point was that water does not exist in three forms simotaniously.  The triple point phenomenon is a point in which three states of matter can exist within the same system.

I see your point about water molecules, but how does it affect the point of the illustration, which was to demonstrate the possibility of one substance existing in three states simultaneously while remaining undivided?

I think you are mistaken, the LDS model is not a Siamese twins model.

I know the LDS model is not a Siamese twins model.

The way I am understanding what you are saying is hard to connect to the triple point phenomenon.  If all the molecules in the liquid form at a particular instant of time were moved (Jesus coming to earth) the system would automatically rebalance itself in the exact same liquid to gas to solid ratio.

How is this not division of the substance?

This isn't supposed to be The Answer to the mystery of the trinity; it is merely illustrative. I don't know what the trinity's substance is. Whatever it is, it is infinite, and it allowed Jesus and the Holy Spirit to come to earth without division of substance.

The triple point is more than the separate states of ice, water and vapor sitting around together in the same chamber. They are physically bound together as one, and one of the states cannot exist without the others. It demonstrates that it is possible for one substance to exist in three separate and distinct states, independent of time, while remaining undivided. I offered this illustration because you had expressed confusion about how something could possibly exist as one undivided substance, but not solitary.

If you say

[johnny]

LDS4EVER  writes,

the bible declares that Jesus is God and my definition of God is moot

I would agree your defination is moot because the Bible declares ...

John 10

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 20

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

[Jon Haugo]

Hi LDS4EVER,

I just joined the discussion and have not read any threads but as I explained in another thread that I do not have much time. But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we all agree that Jesus is God and creator of all things. He is the one who is worshiped and only God can be worshiped. He is the creator and the first and the last. You must be misreading their statements. He is the one true God as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. All of them created because they are the one God. Isa 44:24 says that God created by himself. And there is no God besides Him. He is given every name that is given to describe Him (El, Yahweh, Elohim etc.) http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMFAQ...tyofChrist.html To be called the Son of God is to be called God (John 5:18) You view the Father as one of a multitude of Gods in existence. We view Jesus as a member of the Trinity who is the one true God. Therefore we view Christ as greater than you view the Father. We hold nothing back in our viewing of Christ. If you ask them all they will agree with this post. You must be misunderstanding them, which is easy to do on a discussion board.

Sincerely

Stick

I am sorry that I have to go like this quickly but I honestly can

[Paul Osborne]

Now I am so far behind I might have to drop out. Darn!

How many pages do you think this thread will get!

You all be nice. It's getting late here in Dallas Texas.

Paul O

[Paul Osborne]

...we are safe to assume... I

[Tanyan]

Witin Fiat Lux's link:

[noahnoah]

Big Dogger wrote:

belief that the three persons of the Trinity are merely different modes or aspects of God, rather than three distinct persons

**

Well than you have a God who talks to himself, carries on conversations with himself as well as occupies two locations in space simultaneously.

Which still makes no sense.

See if this makes sense:

Paul has told me repeatedly that 3 personhoods equal 3 Gods and that is THE ONLY WAY TO SLICE IT? Let me ask you this:

How many personalities/personhoods exist within a ONE Schizophrenic?

Answer: More than one

FIRST OFF, (before I get slammed) this is by no-way and no means speaking of the mental capacity/stability or anything related to Gods psychological state. The intent of this analogy is to prove that just because it doesn't seem rational doesn't make it impossible or wrong. Schizophrenia isn't rational, but its real. The reaity of Schizophrnia alone, absolutely breaks the back of your 1 to 1 theory if you will. Now with that being proven to not be the only possible way (although most common) for the human mind and personalities to exist..............how can you begin to fathom the possibilities of his makeup and while doing so applying your limitations to him?

Simply saying 3 personhoods MUST BE DIVIDED into 3 seperate Gods doesn't even apply to us as humans (3 personalities can exist within 1 person), so by what rational do you apply it to God? Is God not capable of taking this state of being and perfect it?

[LDS4EVER]

LDS4EVER

[Tanyan]

Sorry, the last two word should have said "TO ME" in my last post. Peace.

[johnny]

LDS4EVER  writes,

Notice that John uses the upper case G in God.

Notice that the Word was with God ...

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[Tanyan]

Is there capitalization in the Original Koine A Greek. David Pyle can Read the Greek perhaps he can come by and let us know.

[LDS4EVER]

Hi LDS4EVER,

I just joined the discussion and have not read any threads but as I explained in another thread that I do not have much time. But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we all agree that Jesus is God and creator of all things. He is the one who is worshiped and only God can be worshiped. He is the creator and the first and the last. You must be misreading their statements. He is the one true God as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. All of them created because they are the one God. Isa 44:24 says that God created by himself. And there is no God besides Him. He is given every name that is given to describe Him (El, Yahweh, Elohim etc.) http://www.gracebibleministries.org/GBMFAQ...tyofChrist.html To be called the Son of God is to be called God (John 5:18) You view the Father as one of a multitude of Gods in existence. We view Jesus as a member of the Trinity who is the one true God. Therefore we view Christ as greater than you view the Father. We hold nothing back in our viewing of Christ. If you ask them all they will agree with this post. You must be misunderstanding them, which is easy to do on a discussion board.

Sincerely

Stick

I am sorry that I have to go like this quickly but I honestly can

[LDS4EVER]

LDS4EVER

[johnny]

LDS4EVER  writes,

Perhaps it is you who misunderstand. You say Jesus is God. Johnny says that Jesus isn't God. You are both trinitarians but don't agree the nature of Jesus.

Clearly you have misunderstood ... earlier I said

The Moon (the Son of God) is light (God) but the moon is not the ultimate source of the light (God, the Father)

[johnny]

LDS4EVER  writes,

Notice that it also says that the Word was God.

Explain how the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[noahnoah]

When Stephen looked up into heaven as he was being stoned to death, he reported seeing God, and his Son on his right side.

Now what did he see? Two personages.

What did Joseph Smith see? Two personages.

I cannot understand how this can be misconstrued, people.

I understand where you're coming from. As far as Non-LDS members I believe the first thing we question is the credibility of JS testimony. There is information tying JS to the occult, masonry and other not so popular extracurricular activities? Never such information (or at least) that I've seen linking Stephen? But you know, the biggest question I have would be this:

JS and Stephen both saw God and his son?? Right? Why is Joseph Smith the only one to avidly profess that they are 2 Gods? IF it WERE TRUE, it would seem to me that Stephen would have been the first to tell people about the existence of 2 Gods. Its funny how something so blatanly obvious could just be discovered within in less than 200 years, when the book has been around for thousands or years. Just something to think about?

[LDS4EVER]

LDS4EVER

[LDS4EVER]

JS and Stephen both saw God and his son?? Right? Why is Joseph Smith the only one to avidly profess that they are 2 Gods? IF it WERE TRUE, don't you think Stephen would have been the first to tell people, let me remove the veil from over you eyes and hit people with the late breaking news?? Just something to think about?

Hmmm, here's a clue for you. He died!